Episode 26

Aligning your products with your services with Nathan Ingram

Nathan Ingram joined me to share how he’s able to create products and services for WordPress business owners based on his experiences as an agency owner due to the concept of alignment.

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Nathan is the creator of MonsterContracts, battle-tested contracts for WordPress client work. As the founder of >ADVANCE Coaching, Nathan is a Growth Coach for WordPress Business owners, helping them become more successful in their businesses.

You may also have heard Nathan as the Host at iThemes Training where he teaches WordPress and business development topics via live webinar. Based in Birmingham, Alabama, he has been working with clients to build websites since 1995.

You can learn more about Nathan at nathaningram.com, check out MonsterContracts at monstercontracts.com and find his book, Dealing with Problem Clients: Building Fences Around Friendly Monsters on Amazon.

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[00:00:00] Rene: Hey everyone. Welcome to Your First Digital Product, a show that helps maxed-out service providers create their first digital product so they can gain an additional income stream, grow their impact without increasing one-on-one work and experience more time freedom. On the show, I talk to business owners who have launched digital products and dig deep into how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. I’m your host, Rene Morozowich. Let’s go.

[00:00:28] Hey everybody. Today I’m here with Nathan Ingram, and Nathan is the creator of Monster Contracts, battle tested contracts for WordPress client work. As the founder of Advanced Coaching, Nathan is a growth coach for WordPress business owners, helping them become more successful in their businesses.

[00:00:45] Hey, Nathan, how are you?

[00:00:46] Nathan: Hey, Rene. How are you?

[00:00:47] Rene: I’m good, thanks. I’m so excited you’re here.

[00:00:50] Nathan: Oh, I’m excited. Thanks.

[00:00:51] Rene: You have stuff to talk about? I am. I’m really excited. Why don’t you tell us a little bit more about you, like your bio, you know, that’s me reading it. You tell us in your own words.

[00:00:59] Nathan: Sure. So, uh, I guess it all starts, like I go back to working with clients since about 1995 doing stuff on the web.

[00:01:05] So that’s the year I first built and sold a website. And, uh, I’ve been in the web business working with clients ever since then. And out of that has grown, uh, you know, coaching practice. Uh, the work I do with iThemes Training, uh, training other people who build and manage sites for clients. And then, uh, of course Monster Contracts.

[00:01:24] Rene: Yeah. That’s awesome. Very cool. So before we talk about that, cuz I don’t think that was your first product, let’s go back to your first digital product. Tell us about that. What it was, who was the audience, you know, just kind of some background on that.

[00:01:37] Nathan: Sure. So, um, I guess I started coaching seven or eight years ago.

[00:01:42] Uh, it’s 2023. Yeah. So, uh, eight years ago now. And in those conversations, I realized I was repeating the same information over and over again. Right. So I thought, well, I should really record this and create some courses. Right? Because who doesn’t want to have a course?

[00:01:57] Rene: Yes.

[00:01:57] Nathan: Uh, that was a thing, right? Like you should have courses.

[00:01:59] Mm-hmm. So sure, [00:02:00] why not? Mm-hmm. So I recorded, uh, some material, put together three courses. And, uh, it did moderately okay. It did okay. I was definitely not gonna retire on that income, but it was, it was helpful to people. It was accessible. It was a product. It was out there. It was nice.

[00:02:15] Where, you know, whereas I could have a coaching call with someone and there’s an hourly rate for that, but then, you know, this, it’s just out there and people could buy it. It was great not to have to kind of, to get out of the dollars for hours. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, mentality with a product.

[00:02:30] And so that was helpful. And it let people, you know, for less than an hour of coaching, they could access nine, 10 hours of material that we’d pretty much covered in most of the initial conversations anyway. So that mm-hmm, it was good.

[00:02:43] Rene: Nice. So you had clients who did the one-on-one with you, and then you also had the courses.

[00:02:48] So was one like a lead into the other? Would people do the one-on-one with you and then buy the course, or would people or the other way? Or were these just two separate groups of people? So how did that work?

[00:02:59] Nathan: Yeah, that’s really interesting. Cause I did it a couple different ways and I mean, honestly, like there’s no master plan for me in a lot of this.

[00:03:05] I kind of got into it and figured it out.

[00:03:08] Rene: Yeah.

[00:03:08] Nathan: This product exploration is all one big experiment anyway, right?

[00:03:12] Rene: Yes, yes. It totally is.

[00:03:13] Nathan: I’m naturally suspect of anybody that just thinks they can jump into it and have it all together and that’s their story.

[00:03:18] I’m like, Hmm, I don’t think it probably happened.

[00:03:19] Rene: Yeah. Yeah. Tell me, yeah, well, tell me what happened. Yes, and I totally, I agree with you that exactly experimentation. Mm-hmm.

[00:03:25] Nathan: For sure. So, For me, it was like, okay, you know, I’m, I’m already presenting on iThemes Training. I’ve got these talks and like I’ve been at WordCamps and I’ve got these talks, and so I’m gonna record a lot of these.

[00:03:35] The things that I was talking about at WordCamps and on iThemes Training and in coaching conversations are shared problems that like everybody faces. Mm-hmm. Some of the details are different, but the issues are the same. Uh, and so I decided, well, I’m gonna record those and it was helpful, especially back when I was traveling in a lot of WordCamps. Uh, I could say, Hey, did you grab a course? You could hire me for a, you know, as a coach, but I would suggest starting here. Mm-hmm. Cause it gives you a [00:04:00] basis, we’ll have like a shared language at that point. If you wanna start in some one-on-one coaching.

[00:04:05] Uh, and so the courses led into coaching, but then also one of the models that I use for coaching is, uh, it’s kind of a, a hybrid group, one-on-one model. Okay. So, um, it’s, it’s a, it’s a small group. I only have six slots. It stays really full, but there’s a one-on-one call each month. And then we have a group call where everybody brings an issue to the group.

[00:04:24] Mm-hmm. And it’s kinda like a mastermind. So for the people that were in that group, which is a, a, a more committed group. I gave access to the courses so I could, during the conversation, say, okay you need to go watch this video, and rather than me just explaining it to you here, just go watch that video and it’s gonna answer that question.

[00:04:42] Rene: Mm-hmm. I love that as like a supplement to other things, right? Like so many ways that you could do this. Oh, I love that so much. So, just to, in case my audience isn’t familiar with WordPress, I mean, I, I think people are, but hopefully at some point other people will be listening, uh, or watching. Um, but so WordCamps are basically just like WordPress conferences?

[00:05:00] Yes. So conferences that people go to and they talk about WordPress, so people in the, the business. So like at this point you’re basically talking to your peers. You are some steps ahead of them. Maybe they just started, maybe they’ve been doing it for a couple years, but you know, you’ve blazed the trail, you know, in dealing with like client problems or process profits, all that stuff.

[00:05:21] Um, and you’re like, okay, hey, don’t make these same mistakes I did. You know, do this other thing instead.

[00:05:27] Nathan: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And so, you know, what I always tell people is look like I have, you know, I have shed the blood, I have made the mistakes. So if, if I can spare you from any of that agony through a conversation, I’m happy to do that.

[00:05:41] Rene: Yes. Because those problems are not fun. Like those client problems. Yeah. And when, you know, just, you know, things that just kind of keep you up all weekend and Ooh, yeah. No good. So.

[00:05:51] Nathan: For sure the, the amount of stress that I’ve lived through in my world, like mm-hmm. It’s, it’s no fun. And if I can, you know, if we can help people not experience that, that’s a good thing.[00:06:00]

[00:06:00] Rene: Yes. And I think a lot of us are freelancers and you know, that like, that’s just a different, it’s a different thing. Like you don’t have a boss who is like, do this thing. Like, you’re just kind of on your own figuring it out. You didn’t go freelance school. Maybe you’ve taken some classes in, whatever, right.

[00:06:14] You know, but it really depends. So like having somebody who has done this and done it successfully, right? Somebody who has, like I said, blazed the trail and like you, you’ve tested these things, they work for you, so they work for other people too. So I think that’s really valuable.

[00:06:30] Nathan: Right. Yeah. And, and that’s the goal is, you know, find somebody and everybody, no matter what line of work you’re in, everyone should have someone who’s a few steps ahead of them mm-hmm that they can look to as a mentor, just to help avoid all the common pitfalls. Mm-hmm. And also, I think somebody that’s maybe a few steps behind them that they can help come along and, you know.

[00:06:48] Rene: Yes, absolutely. We mentioned before that we started recording, I’m presenting at WordCamp Phoenix next month.

[00:06:53] And you know, part of my talk is, you know, this concept of like, just basically kind of how the WordPress community works. Where you don’t have to know everything about everything. You just have to know a little bit more than somebody else. Somebody who’s just a couple steps behind you or a couple steps higher on the ladder, whatever it is.

[00:07:10] And then you, you turn around and help them, and then you get help from the people a couple steps ahead of you. So, and how valuable that is. Like somebody who’s just a couple steps ahead of you, they remember what it’s like to feel how you feel. It isn’t like they’re so successful now that they don’t even remember what it was like.

[00:07:29] Nathan: Exactly.

[00:07:29] Rene: They, they, it was recent that they felt like you feel and, and know what you know. That’s really what I love about the, the community, but also just that model of, and it also, it opens things up for, you know, we don’t have to wait to help other people. You know, we know enough right now as is that we can help somebody, you know, who’s just coming up.

[00:07:48] So. Absolutely. There’s my soapbox.

[00:07:50] Nathan: Yep. Couldn’t agree more. It’s gonna be a great talk.

[00:07:54] Rene: So did you have any problems like creating or launching? Did you just record the [00:08:00] conference talks? Did you sit down and record them differently at home? Like what, what did the creation process look like in those, those courses?

[00:08:09] Nathan: Yeah, so all of the, all of the material in the courses I had, I mean, they were already, they existed already, so I actually didn’t have to create anything.

[00:08:17] It was already talks I’d given in other places or, you know, on, iThemes Training or, you know, whatever. And so I already had a PowerPoint and I just sat down and recorded it. Like totally low tech. Yes. You know, basic microphone, no camera, just screen share. Uh, and yeah, it, it was, it was very, very low, low cost, uh, time and virtually no money investment.

[00:08:39] Rene: Mm-hmm. And you didn’t overthink it. No. And you weren’t like, I have to edit this and make it super fancy, whatever. Like, because I think the content speaks for itself, but we let these other things get in the way. Like it has to be this or it has to be that, or, you know, that’s not important.

[00:08:53] Nathan: Done is better than perfect. And that’s, yes, exactly. Yes. At some point, you know, one of my mentors, Corey Miller, who founded iThemes, said, you know, just launch, like, just launch. Mm-hmm. Yes. Inter iterate later. Yes. But just launch, get it out there.

[00:09:06] Rene: Yes. Yeah, exactly. For sure. Okay, so those, so anything else you wanna say about those products?

[00:09:10] So you don’t have those available now, right? But you still have the coaching. So kind of what happened then with that, that you just were like, okay, I don’t need these anymore, or, you know, tell us about that.

[00:09:20] Nathan: Yeah, it’s a great question. So, uh, currently the courses are not on my website. That’s a project for this year.

[00:09:27] I sure hope we can get it done. I’m kind of repackaging the way I do coaching. So after having done this for years, and had, you know, hundreds, maybe over a thousand conversations. Ooh. You know, in, in a coaching sense with people. Um, I’ve just, there’s a better way, right? Mm-hmm. So there’s a better way to, uh, approach some of these issues.

[00:09:47] And so I’m, I’m rebranding and repackaging the way I’m doing. Uh, it’s, it’s going to be kind of a hybrid of courses and coaching, um, that I think is gonna be really helpful to people. So.

[00:09:58] Rene: Ooh, that’s exciting.

[00:09:59] Nathan: I just wanted to [00:10:00] pull what, some of the material was a little old. Mm-hmm. Like, it’s good grief.

[00:10:04] Seven, eight years old now, probably. Mm-hmm. So, uh, it was, it’s time to refresh anyway. Mm-hmm. Uh, and so then I really hadn’t been promoting them, so I pulled in from the website and this year we’ll have, uh, something new created out there.

[00:10:16] Rene: Nice. Nice. And I think with that, you know, we, it the, these digital products, you know, don’t just last forever.

[00:10:23] People are like, you create it once and then it sells for all eternity. Like even if the concepts are the same. Yeah. Like you mentioned, you might have a different way to frame it or in that, that sort of like iterating process. Like you can get it out there, let people use it and try it. You’ve already validated it.

[00:10:37] You know those presentations were successful. You created something that you knew was going to work. You have people who are, you know, ready to purchase it and you know, working on it over time. So I just think that’s like a great overall strategy, even though maybe that wasn’t the strategy from the beginning.

[00:10:53] Nathan: Sure. I honestly, I’ve fallen into most of the strategy that I’ve, you know, that I’m using today. Like it’s, I wish I could say, yeah, I, I, you know, I, I went up on this mountain and I had this, you know, great creative experience and I came down with the perfect plan and it’s just, I mean, I’m sure there’s some people that can do that. I am not one of them.

[00:11:12] Rene: But I like that, you know, the strategy kind of is do it. Do a thing. And I, I just think that’s such a, a, that’s a better strategy in my mind because it’s more realistic. But I think a lot of times we let these, let other things kind of stop us from doing the thing. Just do the thing and then you can figure out like what you wanna do differently or change it.

[00:11:29] Like it’s not, you know, everything on the web is, you know, even though the Wayback Machine is there, you know, you can change it immediately. It’s like whenever you launch a client’s site and they’re like, ah, it’s like, it’s okay. We can just change that picture right now. It’s, it’s not a problem. So. Right.

[00:11:41] You know, but you can’t change it unless you, you do it. Do it, launch it. You know, I, I just think that’s a good strategy.

[00:11:48] Nathan: Yeah. Just launch.

[00:11:50] Rene: Yes. Launch it. Uh, maybe that’s what I should have called this podcast. Um, but anyway, so you have some other products. So you have Monster Contracts. Do you wanna talk about that?

[00:11:58] Nathan: Yeah, sure. [00:12:00] This is another one of those things. It’s like, why didn’t I think about this better at the beginning? But, uh, one of the lessons out of the courses I put together, was by far without like, no question, the most positive feedback I got on my courses was, oh, you’re including the contract that you’ve built and used in your business.

[00:12:20] And that was the most valuable piece of the courses and the systems course. I provided a contract template based on the contract that over 25 years of working with clients, we’ve, you know, made, I mean, in my opinion, pretty darn bulletproof. And so I thought, okay, if what I’ve done here, duh, is I’ve buried the lead, uh, and so, oh, if you want a contract, well you gotta go to the course, then this course, and then that lesson, that needs to be the thing.

[00:12:46] Mm-hmm. So instead of it being a part of something bigger, it needs to be the thing that I sell. And so I took the, the, the contract and built some other things around it and called it Monster Contracts. And that’s based on a, a talk that I’d given many, many times at different WordCamps and other venues, online conferences and so forth.

[00:13:06] Um, called Dealing with Problem Clients, Building Fences Around Friendly Monsters. Mm-hmm. So monsters was a thing, uh, and I called it Monster Contracts and got it out there and it’s done very.

[00:13:16] Rene: Yeah, that’s awesome.

[00:13:16] And I love that it was in there, but it was kind of buried. It’s like, oh look, there’s a little diamond down here.

[00:13:22] Nathan: Exactly.

[00:13:22] Rene: Like, we should be showcasing that more. And so it’s so important for people, right? Like people don’t have contracts. You’re like, wait, you don’t have a con, I don’t care what your contract is. Like, put a contract out there. Yes. Get a good one. Work on it over time. Um, you know, get Monster Contracts, whatever it is, but like, at least have one, like, it’s so important.

[00:13:39] So important.

[00:13:40] Nathan: It is, and people either have something very, very simple. They, they’ve grabbed the Contract Killer or something like that that’s out there. Mm-hmm. It’s just basic one pager, it’s not enough. Mm-hmm. Or they have this really complicated legalese document that they can’t understand either, and that’s not enough.

[00:13:52] Mm-hmm. So it’s gotta be in the middle somewhere.

[00:13:54] Rene: Mm-hmm. And that’s, that’s scary. Like, I had one of those too, you know, at the beginning, like I didn’t know and I bought like [00:14:00] a billion dollar contract and I couldn’t read it. And then I would send it to somebody and they would come back with wanting changes and I didn’t know what to do because I didn’t know what it said. So then I’d have to go back to my attorney and, you know, it was, that was not, not a great way forward.

[00:14:15] So having something that you can read and understand and people can read and understand, I think is really, really valuable. Yeah. And you’ve made this a subscription too, so tell us about that. So it’s not just like a one-time, uh, digital product, it is a subscription. So how does that work?

[00:14:30] Nathan: Yeah. So there are things on the web that are constantly changing. Privacy laws, accessibility issues, you know, what is the issue of today? You know, next year it’s gonna be something else. How do you deal with that? How does the contract stay up to date?

[00:14:42] So I thought, we’ll create a subscription where for a small percentage of the initial purchase, you stay connected and every time a new contract is published, you have access to it. Mm-hmm. Uh, we also allow members to, uh, submit suggestions, and if we roll those into the contract, then you know, we give them a, a free annual subscription.

[00:15:04] So that part hasn’t done as well as I’ve wanted it to, and it’s probably my fault. I need to do some more things around that, uh, to make it more effective. But, uh, I still think it’s a good feature, but, uh, we just need to do a better job of promoting it or enticing people to, you know, provide their, their changes.

[00:15:19] Mm-hmm. Selling something is good. Having a subscription is better because it funds future development and keeps the creator interested in the product and and so forth. So.

[00:15:27] Rene: Yeah. And keeps the people connected to you. They don’t just buy the thing and then go off, you know, you keep them.

[00:15:32] It’s because the, the cost of getting a new client or customer is a lot, but, you know, helping an existing one is, is less, less of a cost. And I, I like this subscription because I haven’t seen too many exactly like that, right? Most subscriptions it is, you buy the thing and you pay the same amount every year or pretty close to the same amount, and yours is, you don’t pay as much. I don’t know if there’s a percentage, [00:16:00] um, but you know, the, the upfront fee, which again is not a lot, but then it’s just a small fee every year. So I like that sort of model and, and haven’t seen that in a lot of places. So, options, ideas.

[00:16:11] Nathan: Yeah. So like for us it’s $199 product, but then the annual subscription in the, the following years is $39 a year.

[00:16:18] And what that lets us do is, you know, stay engaged with the product. We bring in an attorney at least every year to review the contract and, you know, get some additional opinion on how things ought to be done. Uh, and so it funds that and, and yeah, it makes it continue to be an evolving document for mm-hmm members.

[00:16:34] Rene: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. Um, do you wanna talk about the book and ebook that you have?

[00:16:40] Nathan: Yeah, sure.

[00:16:40] So this kind of came between the courses and the contract, but uh, the talk that I mentioned that is the namesake of the Monster Contract is this Dealing with Problem Clients, Building Fences Around Friendly Monsters. I had a friend that you should really put that into a book. And I thought, I usually do something over the Christmas New Year timeframe.

[00:17:00] Ooh. Uh, where we’re, we’re kind of down, you know, December’s usually kind of slow the first couple weeks of January kind of slow, uh, for client work. So I usually do some sort of project, internal project, uh, and, okay, well I’ll just, I’ll take this four or five weeks and write this book. And so I went to a Starbucks three nights a week that was right around the corner from my house and just put on some headphones and head down and wrote. I mean, it’s not a huge book.

[00:17:24] You could read this probably in an evening or two if that, like, it’s, it’s 106 pages. Um, Very easy to read, and it’s, it’s essentially the, uh, the points of the talk that I gave, but it’s half fiction, half non-fiction. It’s a lot of fun. Uh, if I was gonna do anything different with this, I would’ve brought in a, a, a book marketing professional to help me launch this correctly.

[00:17:49] Mm-hmm. Because like I, we were saying before we started recording, I’ve made dozens of dollars with this book, you know, and it’s exactly, it’s just sort of a labor of love and it’s out there. Yeah. I’ve got, I say I got a book, you know? Mm-hmm. [00:18:00] Um, and I, I mean, I think it’s helpful. It’s, it’s a fun, easy read that has some good stuff in it, but I would probably have marketed it much differently.

[00:18:06] Mm-hmm. Uh, I was planning to market it just within person speaking events back when I was doing 15 to 20 WordCamps a year before Covid. Wow. But then Covid, you know? Mm-hmm. And, um, I just haven’t really done much with it since then.

[00:18:17] Rene: Yeah. Yeah. But I just like that it’s out there and like that you did it and you know, you can do the things with it now if you wanna change it or.

[00:18:23] Nathan: Right.

[00:18:24] Rene: You know, do a different version or expand it or make it part of something new. Like you have a ton of options, um, because you have done it like, so. I just think that’s, Yeah. Okay. So do you, do you have any other, any other things you wanna talk about those products or anything else you wanna talk about?

[00:18:40] Or do you just wanna give us your two to three things that you recommend for someone who’s creating their first product?

[00:18:46] Nathan: Yeah, so if you’re thinking about creating a product. Um, for most of us that are, you know, we we’re engaged in our main line of work.

[00:18:56] If you’re doing that at a high level, the chances of you having a lot of time on your hands is probably low, right? So, and one of the, the, the comments I get from people who kind of look in on what I’m doing, and, uh, they always ask like, how are you doing all the things you’re doing?

[00:19:12] Because I’m coaching, I run an agency, I do, uh, I’m hosting iThemes training, uh, I’ve got Monster Contracts. Like how do you do all those things? Mm-hmm. And the, the, the reason that I can do what I’m doing and, and stay sane is there’s alignment. So when you’re thinking about a product, it needs to align with all the rest of the things you’re doing.

[00:19:31] So like for me, and the way that fleshes out for me is my core business is agency work. I, we build and manage WordPress sites for clients. From that work, I’m able to do training on iThemes. I’m able to do coaching from my experience. The product Monster Contracts comes out of my agency contract.

[00:19:50] So as we make changes and learn things in working with clients, it flows uphill to Monster Contracts and so forth. Mm-hmm. So everything is aligned. Like if I was doing one work over [00:20:00] here and then had this product in this completely different area, that’s not gonna work. Like, I’m gonna go crazy with that.

[00:20:05] Yeah. So, but if you can keep everything aligned, then you know, your chances of being successful are greater. Mm-hmm. Um, the other thing I would suggest for people who are thinking about a digital product is, you know, and maybe what that product ought to be is like, look at what you’re doing. What is the secret sauce?

[00:20:23] Like, what is the thing you do really, really well? And then how can you train others or help others? How can you productize that thing? Like for me, uh, one of the things we do really well in our agency is manage clients. Right. You know, and not from a project management perspective and more like an emotional intelligence, you know, working, building a system that kind of helps keep clients flowing and moving and informed and, you know, feeling in the loop and communicated with.

[00:20:50] And so from that little bit of secret sauce, I built a talk. I wrote the book, I’m doing some coaching, and we’ve got this contract. That’s the rules of the road for keeping these projects in line. So that’s the secret sauce of the agency, is this contract and all the systems that are contained in it. And so we productize that and it works.

[00:21:09] Mm-hmm. It’s easier to market a product where there’s authenticity behind it. Like I can stand behind Monster Contracts and say like, I’m in this world. I’m neck deep in client work. I know this product will keep you safe from your clients because it works for me.

[00:21:23] Mm-hmm. And so you can speak with authority and have authenticity, and there’s not any, you know, fluffy sales language really, it’s necessary. Right. Because you’re speaking from truth in your own experience. So mm-hmm. That’s what I would have to say for people who are thinking about building something.

[00:21:35] Rene: Yeah. What made you decide to market to your peers? Because I’ve talked about this on the podcast before about, you know, there’s a couple different groups of people that you can market to, like as a service provider.

[00:21:46] So your peers are one, uh, which is a little bit different. You could market to maybe people who. Potential clients who maybe can’t afford you. So people who are like, oh, my budget is a thousand dollars, and you start at $5,000, or whatever it is. So you [00:22:00] could market to that group of people something that doesn’t tie to your time.

[00:22:02] Or you could market to people who will become your clients, um, trying to get them ready in some way. So those are kind of the three groups that I recommend. But what made you decide to work with your peers? Was it, well, you tell me.

[00:22:16] Nathan: With the Monster Contracts in particular, I kept hearing, uh, in conversations of I don’t have a good contract.

[00:22:23] The way it, uh, presents is I’ve got this problem with a client. Oh, well what does it say about that in your contract? Mm-hmm. And then deer in the headlights. What do you mean contract, right? Yes. So it, you know, it presents as these problems and problems working with clients. The percentage of people who have their contract buttoned down who are doing WordPress client work is very small.

[00:22:44] Mm-hmm. Uh, just in my experience. In all the conversations that I’ve had. So I realized that was a need and I had something I thought would be a helpful solution.

[00:22:52] Rene: Yeah. And I like that validation part. You know, that piece of like, okay, I know this works for me, I’m going to, and I see, I see other people asking for it.

[00:23:00] Like a lot of times I think people make a product with no validation in there whatsoever. Right. And you know, that seems kind of like a waste of time. Right. Um, so getting that validation, like people are asking for this or not so much asking, but people are presenting problems such that this could be the answer.

[00:23:15] So yeah. What problems are you hearing, you know, around you with your peers? You know, it sounds like you have some strong networking. I don’t know if, if all service providers have, you know, great networks of peers, but yeah. What problems, you know, problems with potential clients.

[00:23:29] Problems with, um, existing clients. Yeah. What problems are you solving? You know, that you already have a product, maybe you just don’t know it yet.

[00:23:36] Nathan: Yeah. It’s sort of similar to what I suggest to people on the agency side in coaching situations, and that’s, you know, once you get your process defined and how you work with your clients, if there’s a problem in that process, then it’s an opportunity to create a service to solve the problem.

[00:23:52] When you identify the problem, then you can create a service and, oh, wait a minute, maybe this won’t just work for my clients. Maybe it’ll work for other [00:24:00] people’s clients. Right? And so now you’ve got something that if you can take what you, you, you know, you’ve created this secret thing, your secret sauce to solve this problem.

[00:24:09] How can I make that general enough? Where it’s still effective, but could be picked up, you know, put a handle on it to pick up and use by other people.

[00:24:16] Rene: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yes. Oh, I love it. So, any last things that you might wanna say, uh, before you tell us where we can find you online?

[00:24:24] Nathan: Oh, goodness. So, you know, if you’re thinking about creating a product, just again, look, look for that thing that you do really well, and then just do it. Like, just get up there and do it. For me it was sitting in front of a screen for a few hours and recording like low, you know, very minimal investment.

[00:24:40] What’s the minimum viable product that you can get out there? Mm-hmm. That you can test and see if people are interested in it. Right. And just ask the people. People who know you and like you are gonna want to help you. So just put it out there and ask for help from people who might be, you know, potential customers and get them to look at it and evaluate it and just see if it’s got legs and if it does, go for it.

[00:25:01] Rene: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And if it doesn’t, then you can pivot to something else. You can try something else. You have other, other things that you’ve done. You know, and this podcast is, is hopefully for established service providers. So people who’ve been doing this for a while, they’re not brand new at this. If they’re established, they’ve been doing it.

[00:25:17] And they’re probably good at it. So, you know, they didn’t bail to go do something else. So they have some processes, they have some, you know, solutions to working with clients. So there is something in there. And, um, you know, just my, my thought of like, okay, let’s get it out. Let’s, you know, share it with the world because other people, you know, could benefit from it.

[00:25:35] Nathan: Absolutely.

[00:25:37] Rene: Yeah. Okay, cool. So where can people find you online?

[00:25:40] Nathan: I am @nathaningram on Twitter. I am at nathaningram.com, a site which will probably be relaunched with a, with a little bit different branding in a few months. Thanks, and of course, monstercontracts.com.

[00:25:51] Rene: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the show today.

[00:25:53] Nathan: Thanks Rene. It was a lot of fun.

[00:25:54] Rene: Yay. Okay. Talk to you soon.

[00:25:56] Hey, thanks for listening. I’d love to continue the conversation in [00:26:00] your inbox. Email SUBSCRIBE to hey at yfdp.show or sign up in the show notes to get bimonthly emails about how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. Can’t wait to see you there.