Episode 11

Solving important problems in his business and sharing solutions with peers with Kyle Van Deusen

In this episode, Kyle talks about how his digital products are solutions to problems he’s had in his own business.

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Born in California and raised in Texas, Kyle Van Deusen is a husband and proud father of three. After spending 15 years as a graphic designer and earning a business degree, Kyle launched OGAL Web Design in 2017, The Admin Bar community with Matt Sebert in 2018, and Docket WP with Andre Gagnon in 2020.

In this episode, we discuss:

  • Kyle’s first digital product, the Website Owner’s Manual (WOM) and why he created it
  • Its origins as a lead magnet — how it didn’t have a ton of downloads, but once he put a price on it, interest spiked
  • How pricing can be an indicator for people of value
  • The strategy behind his product — informing clients but also getting them to purchase maintenance plans
  • Helping his peers by sharing the solutions he has to his own agency problems and how we’re not actually competitors
  • His ongoing marketing strategy including Black Friday sales, podcast guesting and inclusion in his welcome sequence and other email templates
  • Experimentation with coupons and how he sees an uptick in sales when there is a coupon
  • How his Prospect Pipeline Challenge is a lot of work for people, how it doesn’t sell as well and thoughts on quick wins and gamification
  • A book recommendation — How to Become a Rainmaker
  • Kyle’s User Profiles Worksheet, a worksheet he uses with his own clients and the importance of keeping things simple
  • Additional thoughts on pricing — global audiences and parity pricing, having a higher price to get people invested
  • Handling support requests on his products and how he handles too many questions
  • Having a refund policy and having email scripts to handle people who abuse the policy
  • Showcasing his products by sharing his instructional videos on his sales pages
  • Thoughts about client work, physical products and digital products
  • What happened after having success with his first digital product
  • Thoughts on additional digital products — keeping his mind open to opportunities, listening to his audience, making sure it’s something he’s not only interested in but can do a good job with
  • What an amazing feeling it is to sell digital products
  • What Kyle recommends for people creating their first digital product

Find Kyle at kylevandeusen.com and check out his products at theadminbar.com/products.

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[00:00:00] Rene: Hey everyone. Welcome to Your First Digital Product, a show that helps maxed-out service providers create their first digital product so they can gain an additional income stream, grow their impact without increasing one-on-one work and experience more time freedom. On the show, I talk to business owners who have launched digital products and dig deep into how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. I’m your host, Rene Morozowich. Let’s go.

[00:00:27] Hey everybody. Today I am here with Kyle, and after spending 15 years as a graphic designer and earning a business degree, Kyle launched OGAL Web Design in 2017 and The Admin Bar community with Matt Siebert in 2018. Hey Kyle, how are you?

[00:00:44] Kyle: Fantastic.

[00:00:45] Rene: We are here today to talk about your first digital product and then maybe your subsequent digital products and maybe plans you have for the future. But tell us about the first digital product that you created.

[00:00:56] Kyle: Yeah, so the first one, uh, I created with my partner in The admin Bar, Matt, uh, it’s called the Website Owner’s Manual.

[00:01:02] Um, so the, the genesis story of it essentially is we we’re website designers. We sell WordPress websites. WordPress websites need a lot of babying and care and aftercare and things like that. Clients don’t necessarily always understand what all goes into that. Uh, sometimes it can be an awkward conversation because you sell them, uh, a multiple thousand dollar website and then you say, oh, by the way, you now have to continue paying me, uh, forever or the whole thing will blow up. Yes. So it can feel kind of gross sometimes. So we were really looking at some ways that we could make that sales process a little bit easier.

[00:01:38] Help educate clients on what goes into, um, to maintaining and keeping your website healthy. So that’s when we kind of came up with this idea for this product. So we, we created some rough drafts of it and tested on our own clients and things like that. And we realized really quickly that, hey, this really works and everybody’s buying a care plan now when I show them this.

[00:01:58] Uh, so that’s [00:02:00] when we ended up taking it to the community and kind of refining it and putting it on sale. Actually, uh, I don’t know how deep you want me to get, get into this, but when we first launched it, we just launched it as a free lead magnet and we had it on our website just to download, like, give us your email.

[00:02:13] Mm-hmm, and you can have this thing. I think we got like, it was under a hundred downloads and this was over like an eight month period. Like nobody seemed to care at all. And, and then we turned around and put a price tag on it and started selling it, and now we’ve sold over 3000 of them, so Wow. That’s pretty interesting.

[00:02:29] Rene: That’s amazing. So what changed then there, like once you put a price tag on it, then people were like, oh, I want it, or what happened?

[00:02:36] Kyle: Honestly, that’s the only real difference. Like we did, uh, package it up a little bit nicer. Okay. It was more of like, Once there was a something for sale, there had to be like a sales page and there had to be like a sales process and all that.

[00:02:47] So I think that, mm-hmm increases the, the perceptive value of it some. But I do think, you know, when you give something, when when you say something’s $0, people value it at $0. And when you say it’s $15, they assign $15 to it. So I think just by the fact that we were giving away for free, people probably assumed it wasn’t that useful.

[00:03:07] Mm-hmm. or we wouldn’t be giving it away for free. So that was a huge lesson, you know, right up front. Interesting.

[00:03:12] Rene: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I wouldn’t have have thought of that. That’s amazing. And then, so tell us about the deliverable itself. I mean, I own it, but, you know, tell the audience, um, you know, what, what do people get when they buy it?

[00:03:23] Kyle: Yeah. So it, it’s kind of a weird cross between a, a digital product and kind of more like a strategy. So you get a digital product that’s like a, a, it’s an editable document that you save as a PDF, and it goes over all the details of where the website’s hosted, where you can find the login information, all the things that a year from now they’re gonna have no idea.

[00:03:44] Mm-hmm, even if you told them. Uh, so let’s say they move on to another web developer. You, you move on and you’re no longer servicing them, they go to somebody else. And this happens to us in the web design business all the time, is people come to us and they don’t know anything about their website. So yes, this document gives [00:04:00] you an ability to fill out all this information about their website and hand it over to them so they can keep that for safekeeping and they’ll always have that on record.

[00:04:07] Um, but part of the strategy process that goes in with it is there’s some videos and stuff that are included that we kind of explained how we would recommend using it. Mm-hmm, but also within the document is, um, kind of where the sales starts. So in there we, we list out all the maintenance tasks that need to be done.

[00:04:23] So those are things that need to be done, kind of monitored 24/7. Things that need to be done weekly, monthly, annually. Uh, and then we have a section in there where they actually need to go through. We, we ask our clients to go through and assign who is responsible for each one of these tasks. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that’s the realization point for clients when they go.

[00:04:43] Oh, well I, I don’t wanna put my name in all these fields cuz I don’t know how to do all these things, right? Yes. So that’s when it hits them, like, okay, these things have to be done and I don’t wanna put my name and there’s nobody else here that knows this. So I guess we do need to hire somebody professional for it.

[00:04:56] And obviously that’s the realization we want them to come to. Some people can handle it on their own and that’s fine too. But most the non-technical business owner clients that they just don’t really even have the desire to get in there and learn how to do that. So the, for sure the product itself is that manual, uh, that you can reuse for all your projects and then some training videos and stuff like that.

[00:05:17] Rene: I love that it’s something that you used for your clients. So something that you developed for yourself, excuse me. And. You sold it to your peers. So, you know, you knew that this was a, a problem point. Like this is something that you, you experienced like, oh, I sold them a website, but they don’t wanna buy a care plan.

[00:05:35] You know, and then, you know, what happens ongoing, um, in and maybe knew that other people would have that same problem, which we do.

[00:05:42] Kyle: Right. Yes. It’s, it’s been a, you know, as, as many people as I can get, uh, get it in front of, seem to like it and seem to use it and seem to rave about it. So it’s, uh, it’s been, you know, really great.

[00:05:53] But I, that’s a, that’s a huge point. Like, I didn’t, I didn’t go out and create a product for some people I didn’t know, or for an audience I [00:06:00] was trying to get into. It was like, hey, this works in my business. There’s a lot of people that do what I do. Maybe this would help them too. And I think that’s something that, everybody might not think of, right?

[00:06:09] Like whatever you do for a living, there’s probably other people that do the same thing. And you’ve probably come up with systems and processes and ideas and documents and all kinds of things that help move your business forward. Whether there’s always somebody new coming into the industry, there’s always somebody that’s always done it one way and don’t know these things.

[00:06:25] Mm-hmm, so I think your peers is, is a really awesome market to go to. Um, you know, for, for an example for this product, it helped me in my business, I’ve sold thousands and thousands dollars worth of care plans by using it. Mm-hmm, and then I’ve also sold thousands and thousand dollars worth of this product.

[00:06:42] So yes, uh, it’s a win-win.

[00:06:43] Rene: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. I think that’s a. Um, I think sometimes when people think like, I’m gonna create a product, they, you know, they’re already, if they’re a service business, they’re already selling to one group of people and, you know, you can definitely do an add-on. Or if you have, um, you know, systems and processes like you mentioned that, you know, maybe you can offload to the client as like a DIY.

[00:07:03] So, for example, content, you know, if you’re, you know, web designer, developer, uh, you can maybe sell like a course or something that client can do their own website content, you know, so you can sell to your existing clients or selling to your peers I think is another valuable. You know, avenue, especially when you’re well connected, so you’re well connected, right?

[00:07:23] You go to WordCamps, meetups, I’m sure. Like you have The Admin Bar, so you have a, a community of people around you. You’re not really doing this, um, in a vacuum. So I think that, yeah.

[00:07:33] Kyle: And that, and that’s something that’s just so great about WordPress too. Yes. We just have this huge community of people that all essentially our competitors with each other.

[00:07:41] Mm-hmm, but none of us treat each other like competitors. So it’s a very collaborative environment. So, uh, that’s definitely a huge benefit to what I’m doing as well.

[00:07:49] Rene: I think that there’s so many bad websites out there that there’s like, more than enough, like really how many do you need to do a year? Like, how many do I need to do a year, you know, to, to make, you know, my life, uh, you [00:08:00] know, good and, uh, peaceful and happy and you know, where I can pay the bills and do the things that I wanna do.

[00:08:05] Like, I don’t need more than that. Like, there’s plenty to go around. Right.

[00:08:08] Kyle: Absolutely.

[00:08:08] Rene: Is kind of what I’m thinking about that. Um, so you’ve had some, so anything else you wanna say about the website owners. What about, a little bit more, maybe about the marketing, like, um, you’ve done, I noticed you had a coupon up, I think, um, because you won an award.

[00:08:24] Like, so tell me a little bit about maybe how you’ve continued to market, because that’s a thing. I think that people getting into their first product, like, okay, you build the product, you, you create, create the product, have the time to build it, you launch it, and then you have to keep marketing.

[00:08:39] Kyle: And that is, that is really difficult.

[00:08:41] So I think back to when we first actually made it for sale with a price, uh, and you know, I did a big post in our community, whatever, sent out an email, I don’t remember exactly, uh, but we were just, this, this was our first product to sell like this. We were just so like, flabbergasted that our, our phones were just constantly, going off with notifications of new sales.

[00:09:01] I, I think at the time we were selling it for 15, $15 or $12 or something like that. It wasn’t a lot of money. Mm-hmm, uh, but it felt like we hit the lottery. Right. And I think yes. That, that first, like week or two, we ended up selling like a thousand copies of it, uh, or close to it in the first week. And so if you look at the graph, the sales graph, you know, it was this huge spike in the beginning.

[00:09:22] Mm-hmm. and then it went down pretty quickly cuz we had got it in front of everybody that was in our audience, you know? Mm-hmm. And then it’s just been, you know, a little bit more slow going in ongoing with, you know, pickups for when I’ll go on a podcast or something and talk about it. Mm-hmm. and then we see a little spike or whatever, or, uh, Black Friday and things like that.

[00:09:40] Um, but yeah, so I, I’m not a great salesperson. I don’t really like being salesy, so I like to make everybody aware of it. It’s featured on our website and things like that. Um, I have put it inside of like our email templates, so when we send out emails, there’s always a call to action in there about The Website Owner’s Manual.

[00:09:58] It’s the most successful thing we’ve done, [00:10:00] so, uh, and I think it’s the most helpful for people as well. So it’s always in there. Uh, when people join our community, we ask ’em if they wanna join on our mailing list. When they do that, there’s a sequence they go through and when they get through there, if they.

[00:10:12] if they haven’t been tagged as owning that product, then we send them an email about that product. So pretty much everything we’re doing right now with it is fairly passive other than, uh, people ask me to come on podcasts and things like that. Yeah. So I’ll come talk about it. Uh, and then once it gets to like Black Friday and, and like natural sales things, we’ll do a little bit more on it.

[00:10:30] But, um, at this point it. I don’t know, probably on average about three copies a day, and I don’t really spend any time doing anything with it, which is pretty awesome. But, uh, you mentioned the coupon code. I mm-hmm. again, I’m not like the world’s best salesman, so don’t take everything I say as like the, the, the honest truth.

[00:10:48] This is just my experience. If, if we put a, if we put a price of $15 on it with no coupon, or we did a $30 price with a 50% coupon, so it’s the same price. Mm-hmm, we would sell 10 times as many with the coupon than the other way around. It’s, it’s always been that way. So there’s basically, uh, pulling back the curtain, there’s always a coupon.

[00:11:09] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, right now there’s one, because we just won award, like you said. So that was the reason to put a, a different coupon out there. Uh, there’s a lot of people coming into our ecosystem because of that award. Uh, so I wanted them to have an opportunity to get in at, at a good rate. Um, but even I’ve had it on when we don’t have some kind of promotion going or something like that, it’s just on the sales page, it says, Hey, join our email list and we’ll send you a 25% coupon.

[00:11:33] Oh. And that there is very few people that don’t use a coupon, so mm-hmm, if they go to the sales page, you know, they might as well sign up and get the 25% off if they’re gonna buy anyways. And then that gets ’em into our email, uh, email system and all that as well.

[00:11:47] Rene: Yes. Which is super valuable, I would think. Yes. You know, like that’s like very valuable that, that, you know, a big proponent of the email list and building the email list and. That’s, that’s a great way to do it too. It’s like then you get all the things and everybody else gets, [00:12:00] like, everybody wins in all the ways. So they get your emails, you have good emails once a week, Fridays like them.

[00:12:06] It’s good. It’s good stuff. You’re doing good work.

[00:12:09] Kyle: Well, thank you.

[00:12:09] Rene: So tell us about some other products you have. The Easy Peasy Proposal, Prospect Pipeline Challenge, User Profiles Worksheet, and the Agency Airtable Pack.

[00:12:18] So what are like, tell us about some of those things. How did those come to be? How do those sell? How do you feel about those? How do people feel about them?

[00:12:25] Kyle: Yeah, so basically same story again is, uh, I needed to create a solution to solve a problem in my own agency. Uh, I figured out something that worked for me and I thought, I wonder if this would work for other people, and kind of put it out there.

[00:12:38] Rene: So, uh, the proposal thing, everybody hates writing proposals. I’ve not met one person yet that just like, I’m so excited. I gotta write a proposal today. Like everybody hates it. I really hate it. I will put it off and put it off and put it off and I’m like, all I have to do is just write, write something down.

[00:12:55] These people are gonna give me money and I still don’t wanna do it. So what I had to do for myself was come up with like, a really simple fill in the blank type proposal. That way I knew like I could get in here and I can write the proposal in 10 minutes, so there’s no excuse. Like it’s not gonna take a lot of brain power.

[00:13:11] There’s already a structure. I just have to answer these questions about this project. I know the answers to them. Um, and once I started doing that, it started getting easier. I’m not gonna say I enjoy it now. Mm-hmm, that would be a total lie. I don’t enjoy it still, but I can knock it out in 10 minutes. So it’s, it’s not something I put off as long, so I’m not mm-hmm.

[00:13:28] you know, before I was spending an hour, two hours on a proposal and staring it mostly a blank screen and a blinking cursor, and now it kind of walks me step by step through the process. So, uh, once I got that working for me, I know that’s a, a problem a lot of people in our community have as well. Mm-hmm.

[00:13:43] so I put that out there for sale. I don’t think it’s, it’s 20 bucks or something like that. It’s not, none of the products we sell are are super expensive. Um, but again, it comes with the, the document, it comes out, it comes with like a completed example, because I think that’s a roadblock too, is like you’re still having to fill in the blank, [00:14:00] right?

[00:14:00] Mm-hmm, uh, so I’ve, I’ve shown, here’s a completed example for a project that I sold for this amount of money, and I, I share that in there so they can see how much. How much effort I put into that proposal to sell it for X amount dollars. Um, and then some, uh, you know, videos around that or whatever. Uh, so I, I, that’s done fairly well.

[00:14:18] Nothing near the WOM. I, I don’t even have numbers on what it does, but we sell a couple of them a week, so mm-hmm, it still brings in fairly passive income. And again, I’m not doing a whole lot to promote it other than it being on our website. Uh, and you know, maybe in some email sequences or things like that.

[00:14:33] Mm-hmm. So, let’s see. The, the Prospect Pipeline Challenge. This one is the one I’m probably most proud of and put the most time and energy into, and it’s probably the one that sold the least amount of copies because it’s a lot of work. Okay, the idea being, yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:50] Um, people like a quick win, right?

[00:14:52] Kyle: Yeah. People like a fill-in-the-blank template, right? Mm-hmm. not, you need to do exercises for the next three weeks. Mm-hmm. Um, I work solo, so I’ll get real busy with projects and then I ignore my pipeline and then I finish up those projects and I’m like, where did that pipeline go? I have nothing to do now, right?

[00:15:07] Yes. And so then I panic and I take on bad projects or I mm-hmm, I bid something way too low cuz I just need money coming in. And what I’ve realized is you have to, you just have to constantly nurture the pipeline. Like it’s, even if you’re busy, you still gotta be working on it. Mm-hmm. Um, so I’m a, I’m a very competitive person.

[00:15:25] If there’s a way to win something, I wanna win it. Right. It doesn’t matter what it is. Uh, I, I’ve told this story before, but there’s like, we live in a little pre-planned neighborhood. There’s like four or five different ways out. I’ve drove all the different ways and timed them multiple times, so I can figure out what is statistically the quickest way to get outta this neighborhood.

[00:15:41] Mm-hmm, it’s just the way I work. Right? Uh, so what I did to solve this challenge was I needed to gamify it in some way. Like what could I do, uh, to make staying on top of this proposal, something that kept me interested. So I actually read this in a book, uh, it’s called How to Become a Rainmaker. I’ll have to look up the author, but, okay.

[00:15:59] [00:16:00] It’s a really, it’s, it’s a little sales book. Um, and it’s got really short lessons in it. And this is something he explained in there. And it’s, it’s basically a gamification system where, uh, Each day you get so many points for different activities, right? Mm-hmm, um, so those activities could be, you get a new contact, you get on, you schedule a meeting with the client, um, you, uh, you send out a proposal or you get assigned contract or whatever.

[00:16:26] So there’s different point values for each one of these different activities. Mm-hmm. Each week, you need to amass this amount of points in order to keep your pipeline healthy. So for me, what it’s done is just gamified that process is I can look and say, oh God, Monday and Tuesday I got nothing. Like I got zero points on any of this.

[00:16:42] I’m gonna have to spend some more time on this later in the week. Uh, and it’s helped keep me accountable. So what I did with this product was, essentially build out that scorecard, the system for it, uh, and assigned point values to everything. Um, but that alone I didn’t think was enough. I think the biggest part of this is you really need to get in the habit of doing this constantly.

[00:17:04] Mm-hmm. So the, the challenge is like a three week challenge where I send auto, it’s all off automation, but I send an email every day. With some kind of task you can do or a new idea on how to reach out to somebody or, so it all follows like everything you would do, uh, through the, the life cycle of a, a prospect being in your pipeline.

[00:17:22] So every day I’m sending you some kind of challenge you can do or some kind of activity you can do to help you earn those points. Uh, asking you what your point total is at the end of each week. Mm-hmm. so people can reply to those emails and I can, uh, encourage them or give them a swift kick if that’s what they need as well.

[00:17:37] Uh, so once they get through that three weeks, uh, they’ll have, you know, they’ll have completed the challenge. They’ll have hopefully started to build some of those, um, those habits that just take a long time to form. Uh, so that, that’s really, that’s, that’s probably my favorite thing I’ve made is just not been the most successful thing.

[00:17:54] And I think that is just because now you’re gonna have to work for three weeks.

[00:17:57] Rene: Well work, but have you done it in like a group [00:18:00] cohort at all? Like, you know, like in The Admin Bar, I’m, I’m not a big Facebook person, so I’m, I don’t, I’m not in the group very much, but

[00:18:06] Kyle: I understand,

[00:18:06] Rene: you know, like, hey, we’re gonna do, you know, starting January 1st for the next three weeks, like post your points daily, post your weekly total, something like that.

[00:18:14] Like that might, you know, I wonder if like, the points alone, you know, maybe they need to compete against others too.

[00:18:23] Kyle: That’s, that’s a great question. I, I haven’t done that inside the community. I have some like private mastermind groups where there’s only like eight people per group and we have gone through that together.

[00:18:31] Rene: Oh, cool.

[00:18:32] Kyle: Uh, with them in those, and I think it’s been more successful people’s, people hang on more. Uh, you know, I, I can go through the analytics of that. The, the three long, three week long email sequence and I can just watch the open rate drop and drop and drop. Oh yes. So the mm-hmm the first few days people are really into it, and then you can kind of see where they start waning.

[00:18:50] So I do think just some more accountability on that could definitely be helpful for folks.

[00:18:54] Rene: Yeah. Yeah. Just, just wondering if that’s, you know, just a thought. But, um, yes, I mean, it sounds good. Cool. And I think like, the challenges are nice just to do, like every once in a while. Like, I mean, I know they build good habits, but like, I think that, like, like I did a proposal challenge, I think it was in 2021, the first three months, you know, and I tried to get to like x number of dollars just in proposals and then yeah, kept track along the way.

[00:19:18] And I had like, you just, you’re just in that mindset. I think you’re just sending, you’re not sending proposals out willy-nilly, but you’re letting potential clients know everything you offer. Right? Like, because before I’m like, oh, well they’re not going to want that. So I’m not going to tell them that I offer that.

[00:19:36] But like, when you’re in a challenge, you’re like, okay, well I’m gonna tell them all these things, so that’ll get more, more credit for it. So, yeah, and I mean, it’s mindset thing.

[00:19:44] Kyle: Something like if, if somebody talks to you about yellow cars, uh, chances are next time you go out and drive, you’re gonna see a yellow car somewhere and be like, yes.

[00:19:51] Oh, that’s so funny. I’m seeing all these yellow cars now. It’s just those things you can kind of like, not necessarily manifest them, but you become more aware of them. Right. So with [00:20:00] this challenge, when you’re always thinking about, these are the things I need to do to get points, what I’ve noticed is I start finding a lot more opportunities, more opportunities to connect with people I maybe wouldn’t have connected with mm-hmm.

[00:20:09] or to push them along in the sales process and stuff because it’s just top of mind. So I think it’s really, really helpful. It’s helped me a ton. I’ve kind. I’ve still waned. You know, I’m like everybody else, like, I’ll, I’ll get off track a little bit and get back on it, you know, so I’ve kind of forced myself to get back on that as well.

[00:20:26] Uh, I’ve set up some additional systems for mine, so I’m a huge Airtable person, which we can talk about that. Yeah. Um, but, uh, I’ve set up a bunch of stuff in Airtable, so it automatically tracks a bunch of things for me and it sends me reports on how I’m doing every week. So I get reminded of it pretty, pretty, uh, pretty regular.

[00:20:42] Rene: That’s awesome. Even maybe like a, a hashtag for it. Like I, I did #tweet100 or maybe earlier this year, you know, and you had to use the hashtag and you’re posting every day, and then it Right. Calculated the things in the background, like, here are my points for the day, or here’s the thing, you know, to kind of like, you know, have that.

[00:20:59] Accountability somewhere. And then people are seeing that, right? They’re seeing my tweet, they’re seeing, you know, the post or whatever, and they’re like, oh, well what is that? What is she doing? You know? And then it’s kind of like, it’s spreading the word too.

[00:21:11] Kyle: So it’s a great, I, I’m gonna hire you to help me market this. So we need to,

[00:21:14] Rene: I like ideas how we’re done, let’s, let’s talk about ideas. I have all the ideas, so. All right, so, um, then you have the User Profiles Worksheet, which I feel like everybody needs a worksheet, right?

[00:21:25] Kyle: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s a really, really simple one, I’m not, I don’t get super deep into the weeds with my clients’ marketing.

[00:21:32] Like I build websites and I have some background in marketing, but that’s not my main focus. Mm-hmm. But it is important for clients to kind of know who their audience is and who they’re selling things to. And I find a lot of times clients have a lot of problems with that, especially when it gets to like, um, we need to write content for your website and.

[00:21:51] They, they’re kind of just writing into an abyss. Mm-hmm. Uh, so what I came up with was a, a simple worksheet for my clients that helps them target a few [00:22:00] people who are good customers of theirs, so they can kind of identify who these people are like. Uh, It’s a, you know, this avatar, it’s a woman.

[00:22:08] She does this for a living. Her income is this, whatever, right? Mm-hmm. So they fill those things in and, uh, the little worksheet just helps them answer some questions about those people. It’s really intuitive. I, I feel like some of those client avatar systems are really fru-fru and I, it’s like, uh, I don’t, I don’t know if I buy all this.

[00:22:27] Yeah, this one’s very straightforward. Uh, in that, in that sense, it’s only a couple pages long. It’s something you can do with a client in 15 or 20 minutes.

[00:22:36] Rene: That’s good.

[00:22:36] Kyle: I’m not saying you would perfectly know everything about their business when you’re done, but you’re gonna know a whole lot more than if they can’t answer anything.

[00:22:42] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So again, that, that product’s, I think, a few dollars. It’s not much at all. It’s done fairly well too. And I know, uh, I know quite a few people have said they’ve, they’ve kind of built that into their systems for especially like, this wouldn’t be good for a big, uh, you know, fortune 500 company, but for a mom and pop business, it’s really not hip to all these marketing things.

[00:23:01] I think it could be really helpful, uh, helpful there.

[00:23:04] Rene: Yeah. And if you’re starting from, I sell to everyone. You know, who’s your ideal client? Everyone, you know, like, that’s not a good place to start, you know? It, it just takes you, you know, maybe to the next step or the next step. Yeah. Not like you’re identifying every single thing about them, but it, you know, it, it brings, it sounds like it brings them, you know, closer, you know?

[00:23:23] Kyle: Right.

[00:23:23] Rene: Within reason, you know, and like a nice 15, 30 minute worksheet, like, you know, meeting like that seems much more doable. Like I’ve, I’ve gone through some of these things where, it’s, the whole thing seems so daunting. Mm-hmm. like then, then you just don’t wanna do it at all. Right. So having something that’s approachable that kind of, you know, brings you a step closer, I feel like is really valuable.

[00:23:42] I, I think too people with the digital products, they, I dunno if they have something to prove to someone themselves or whatever, but like, they’re like, I have to make the biggest thing ever in the world. And you’re like, no, no, you don’t have to do that. Like,

[00:23:55] Kyle: how about how, how can we make it as simple as possible. Yes. Yes. Like none of us have time for all that.

[00:23:59] Rene: Well, that’s [00:24:00] the thing, like you don’t have time to do it and people don’t have time to consume it. You know? Like maybe you can get somebody to buy it because yeah, it’s giving you all the promises in the world, but people don’t have time to consume it. And then what is like, what good is that? They’re not going to say to their friend, Hey, I bought this really great course because they didn’t do it.

[00:24:17] Kyle: Right.

[00:24:18] Rene: So they’re not even gonna mention it. So then you don’t get the word of mouth, um, and you don’t get the win. They don’t get the win. Like nobody, nobody wins with those things. So I think the smaller products where you can actually, people can actually use them and work through them and do them like, is a good, good way to, you know, move people forward.

[00:24:35] So how do you determine the pricing on these?

[00:24:39] Kyle: Just. Thin air, I pull it outta thin air. Yeah, that’s nice. I, I dunno why I, I try to think about what I would pay for that. You know what I mean? I, I don’t do this. I, I don’t sell products inside The Admin Bar to make a living necessarily. Right. Like, I’m not paying my bills off of this.

[00:24:55] It is nice to have a little bit of another income stream. Uh, so. For sure that that’s important. Uh, I do spend a lot of time on, on these things and support and all that, you know, so it’s good to get paid for your time. Uh, but I try to make it all reasonable. I, we also have a really global audience, so that’s something to keep in mind too, is mm-hmm.

[00:25:12] not everybody’s in the United States. With the economy that the United States has, uh, doing parity pricing is really probably difficult and more than I would probably do for this. So I try to price it in a way that makes it a little bit more equitable for everybody. Honestly, with all of these things that we’ve created, it’s just.

[00:25:28] If this would be helpful, I want it to be in everybody’s hands, right? Mm-hmm, so I don’t need to charge, you know, thousands of dollars for it. Uh, the, The Pipeline Challenge is the most expensive one. I think it’s like $70. Um, and a lot of that pricing. Uh, I did some comparisons and testing with some people.

[00:25:46] I, I felt like if that pricing was too low, nobody would feel like they were invested in it. Yeah. So this is something that’s gonna take three weeks to go through, and you’re gonna have to be, uh, diligent about doing this. And if you invested $10, it’s [00:26:00] real easy to say, eh it was only 10 bucks. I’m just not even gonna fool with this anymore.

[00:26:04] But if you spent $70, well now you kind of feel like you need to see it through. So part of that pricing in there was just the, the buy-in that people need to make if they’re gonna do this, right? Mm-hmm, not because I need to take more money from them, but they need to be this, this level of invested in this before they do it.

[00:26:21] Yes. Or don’t do it like mm-hmm, if you, if you can’t, if you can’t invest $70, then you’re probably not gonna invest all the time. This is gonna take anyway, so just don’t buy this. You know?

[00:26:30] Rene: Yes. Yeah. That makes that perfect sense. Yeah, and I think people don’t think about those things. They, you know, just, There’s more to it than that.

[00:26:38] And I, I do think the value and maybe some testing too, like, you know, if, if you put it up for $10 and no, well, like you said, like you put it up for free and, and you know, not a lot of people got it, but you put a price tag on it and then people see it’s valuable. So I think that’s important. Like, that’s good.

[00:26:52] So, and you have the agency Airtable pack and you love Airtable. So tell me all about it.

[00:26:57] Kyle: I’m such an Airtable nerd, uh, if you, if you don’t know anything about Airtable, it’s, it’s a database. It’s kind of like people will say, uh, like Excel on steroids, but it’s a lot different than Excel. It does look kind of like Excel might look the table format, but it’s actually a database structure with like relational data and stuff like that.

[00:27:14] I’m a total nerd for it. I have like a hundred Airtable bases in my account and I live in it all day. Um, I think it’s one of those things that works really well for people. That clicks with their brain and for other people mm-hmm, they don’t like it at all. Uh, but it does take a lot of setup and a lot of getting used to mm-hmm.

[00:27:29] So if, if you’re used to project management tools, like ClickUp, let’s say, uh, one that a lot of people know, they’ve built everything already in to, to be a project management system, and you need to kind of conform your systems and processes to fit within ClickUp. Mm-hmm, uh, Airtable works differently. It’s not a project management tool.

[00:27:47] It’s a database tool and you can make it what you want, right? So, uh, you can build out a project management system using it exactly to your specifications. So, uh, in one way that’s great because you can make it exactly what you [00:28:00] need, but in the other sense, it’s not already done for you. You’re gonna have to figure all this out.

[00:28:04] You’re gonna have to map out how all the data’s gonna work and mm-hmm. reminders and all these kinds of things you would never have to think about in like a pre-made system. So, because of that, I, I’ve built tons of different bases for tons of different use cases and, and shared them with people. Uh, it’s a lot to explain and even if I sat here and explained every step you needed to take to do it, it’s gonna take you a couple days to build it all out.

[00:28:26] Mm-hmm. and make it work. So I’m like, well, here’s about six bases that I think everybody could use that does, does the work I do. If they’re into Airtable. So I just package those up, uh, into a little bundle and sell those, um, with some training videos on, on how to use every one of them. Uh, and that’s done fairly well for the, you know, I’ve, I’ve segmented the market, right?

[00:28:47] So first, the only people I talk to are web developers, and now I’m only talking to web developers who also use Airtable.

[00:28:53] Rene: Yes. Yeah.

[00:28:54] Kyle: So there’s a, a much smaller pool for that one. Mm-hmm. Uh, but I, I know a lot of people use that one. That one I get the most, uh, support requests and stuff on. Not because there’s problems, but because people wanna modify it and change it. Mm-hmm, which is a huge benefit of Airtable, and they’re unsure how to do that. So I spend a lot of time on that one. Uh, kind of helping people through how to modify some of those bases to fit their needs. Mm-hmm. Uh, but I just love that product so much. I was really happy to have some kind of product to sell with Airtable. Yeah. Which is fun.

[00:29:21] Rene: Yeah. So how does that, how does that work with the support, like on any of these products? If people email you with questions like, you know, I’m sure maybe you would answer a question or two, but like, what if it gets to be too much? Like, if you have a product where like, you know, you, you have well exceeded.

[00:29:35] Mm-hmm, you know what? I’m the profit on this product. So how do you handle that? If, if that comes up.

[00:29:41] Kyle: Yeah, I should probably have a really good policy on that. I don’t, um, so I would say 99.9% of people are just great and nice. Mm-hmm. and they have a question and I answer the question and they thank me and mm-hmm. they’re grateful that I took the time to answer the question. That’s 99.9% of people. 0.1% of [00:30:00] people are just real jerks. Mm-hmm. Um, so, uh, if, if it does get to the point where somebody’s, I just feel like they’re wearing me out on, on what I could possibly do as far as support on this product. There’s terms and stuff on the website, but I’m fairly lenient on that.

[00:30:15] I’ll just let them know, Hey, you know, I, I can’t do any more to support on this. If you’d like to set up some kind of coaching session mm-hmm, here’s a paid package I offer.

[00:30:22] Rene: Oh, awesome.

[00:30:22] Kyle: It’s very expensive and nobody ever buys it. Mm-hmm. And that’s kind of the point of it. Yeah. Uh, but it gives them the signal like, okay, this, this free support time is over on this product.

[00:30:30] Mm-hmm. Um, but it’s, it’s really not been too much of a problem. Um, I think, you know, e every product needs to have some kind of refund policy. Ours does as well. I’m very lenient with it. If somebody’s not happy with something, it’s not really worth the fight to

[00:30:46] Rene: Yes. Yeah.

[00:30:47] Kyle: You know, keep my $15 or whatever. Mm-hmm. Right. I’m happy to just refund them. Even though it’s digital and it’s not like they can give it back. They’re probably still using it. It’s a small percentage of people, um mm-hmm. that I think would, would do that. Unethically as fact, as like, I’m gonna buy this, then I’m gonna refund it, I’m refund I using it.

[00:31:04] Mm-hmm, it’s so, it’s so few people that I just try to not let that bother me that if they ask for a refund, I’ll just give it to ’em. Mm-hmm. And that keeps everybody happy and it’s, it’s easier on me.

[00:31:13] Rene: And your peace of mind. Exactly. Like you don’t wanna like labor over this sort of thing. Yeah. Again, for like $15, like it’s taking up mental space.

[00:31:21] Kyle: Right?

[00:31:21] Yeah. It’s just a whole lot easier to hit refund and move on, you know? Yes. And we’ve had some of those people that come back and they’ll come back and not talk nicely about the products. Yes. Would be the, the nice way to say it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. that some that in the beginning really bothered me cause I’m like, it’s not like I ripped you off for hundreds of dollars.

[00:31:39] Yeah. It’s 15 bucks or whatever. Like, you don’t have to be a jerk. So now I’ve just wrote, uh, email scripts for those scenarios. Mm-hmm, just thanking them for their feedback and letting them know I’ve processed a refund and it’ll take, you know, three days to show back up in their account or whatever.

[00:31:54] Mm-hmm. and I just kind of, uh, put that all off on automations and email scripts.

[00:31:59] Rene: Yes.

[00:31:59] Kyle: To take [00:32:00] care of that for me.

[00:32:00] Rene: That’s nice.

[00:32:00] Kyle: So I don’t have to be so bothered by it cuz it, I mean it mm-hmm, it hurts your feelings at some point. Like, man, I was just trying to help, you know, so

[00:32:07] Rene: Yeah. And 10 people could say it’s the most amazing product ever.

[00:32:10] And that one person who says that it sucks, you’re like, oh, no.

[00:32:13] Kyle: I think that ratio so much. is a a thousand to one. Yeah, for sure.

[00:32:17] Rene: It’s hard, like, yeah. You take it really personally and you’re like, Yeah, so it’s good. I like that idea with the, with the email scripts, um, and the automation and, you know, just kind of letting it go.

[00:32:29] Don’t even let it in really. You just kind of just let it go like there. It’s

[00:32:32] Kyle: Yeah. Every time you have to write those replies Yeah. You have to like relive the entire thing. Yes. Every time. Right? So when it’s just an email script, you’re bothered by the email that comes in, but you just select the script, hit send.

[00:32:45] Yeah. And then you can kind of move on. You don’t have to rehash all that every time. Well, which is helpful.

[00:32:49] Rene: Yes. And especially then when you, when you know that the conversation is basically over at that point, like Right. It’s just, yeah. You know, there’s, there’s no more to it. Um, have you thought about doing any kind of like, I don’t wanna say like a webinar.

[00:33:00] I don’t love the term webinar, but like, you know, some. Do you have some videos, some YouTubes or things like that about like, these products, like, Hey, we’re gonna, today, we’re gonna walk through like Airtable, you know, to, to have like these things sold at the end. Like, do you do that kind of stuff or? Yes. It’s mostly just there.

[00:33:18] Kyle: I’m, I’m just a terrible salesperson. I think what it is like, if you want it, take it. If not, that’s cool too. Uh, so the, the Airtable bases. I actually recorded walkthrough videos for each base to explain how everything’s set up, how data’s connected, where you need to input stuff. If you wanna change something, here’s where you do it.

[00:33:36] So there was like tutorial videos for each one of these, uh, bases. Uh, and it basically explains everything you need to do to build this and how everything works. I ended up just putting all those videos on the sales page for, for the product, so

[00:33:49] Rene: Oh, nice.

[00:33:50] Kyle: Somebody could go there and just watch the videos and mm-hmm. sit there and press pause and rebuild them all out. Yeah, totally fine. They could, yeah. And it, you’re listening and you don’t wanna spend the mm-hmm. whatever dollars it is on [00:34:00] it. Yeah. Uh, you can, you can definitely go do that. That’s fine. Uh, but I think the, the benefit there is, you know, you save the time of not having to do all that.

[00:34:07] So those videos are all available. Uh, same thing with the, the Website Owner’s Manual. We’ve basically, if you went out there and searched for everything, we’ve given the whole thing away. Mm-hmm. in pieces here and there.

[00:34:18] Rene: You could put it together. Yeah.

[00:34:18] Kyle: Out there. Yeah. You could put it all together. Um, so yeah, I’ve, I don’t know.

[00:34:23] I, none of these products feel like, uh, webinar sales funnel. Mm-hmm. Okay. Type strategy. Mm-hmm, uh, ready, you know, they’re all very low ticket type thing, so I, maybe that’s just an excuse I’m making mm-hmm. so I don’t have to do it, but No, I haven’t.

[00:34:37] Rene: Well, I mean, if you don’t wanna do it Yeah. Why would you do it?

[00:34:38] Sure. Yeah. So do you have plans for some future digital products or are these things, you know, because they’ve come up, you know, of things that you’ve created? Like, do you think that that’s just how you’ll continue is like, if you have another problem and you create another solution, then you’ll offer it out there?

[00:34:54] Kyle: Yeah. So when after the WOM had its the Website Owner’s Manual had its initial success, I’m like, okay, well this is great because I don’t know if you’ve never sold a digital product before. I mean, even the different, I’m, I’m a service-based business, right? Mm-hmm. Running an agency. So, uh, this seems really simple, but sometimes it’s worth talking about.

[00:35:13] Uh, somebody pays me money and then I have to go do a bunch of work, right? Mm-hmm. And when you sell a product, you do a bunch of work and then people come pay you money and take the product, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and then you, you know, with physical things, you run outta inventory and you have to go back to work and make more products so then you can sell it.

[00:35:28] And digital’s pretty insane. The fact that you made it one time and then it just sells infinitely. It’s like just auto regenerates, which is amazing. Mm-hmm. When, when we had that initial success with the Website Owner’s Manual, I’m like, well, this is the ticket. I just gotta make a bunch of these things and I can retire.

[00:35:43] You know, I won’t have to work at all anymore. So I kind of, uh, got in the mindset of like, okay, I gotta force myself to come up with some products. And what I came up with was not real great when I did it that way. It felt forced, it felt like I was trying to sell something. It didn’t feel genuine to me.

[00:35:59] [00:36:00] Mm-hmm, uh, so I’ve kind of stopped going after that. I had a, I had a goal this year to create two new products. Uh, I did not meet that goal. Um, but I’m also not stressing out about it. I think when, when I make something, I’ll know that like, Hey, this is mm-hmm, this would be a great thing to share with people. And, and it would, it would make for a good product.

[00:36:17] And if that happens, I’m totally open to that. And I’m my, uh, my mind’s open to those opportunities. Mm-hmm, I’m looking for them, but I’m not, I’m not out there with some kind of deadline If I gotta make something up to start selling right now, it just doesn’t, it doesn’t work with my, my way of working, so.

[00:36:32] Rene: Right. Yeah. And especially make something like something is not. Easy to quantify or qualify. Right? Like, like what is something like thinking of the idea, um, what, I mean, has your audience asked for anything? Like, is there anything out there that people are like, or, or that you see, like people are always asking about this thing.

[00:36:50] Like, I bet I could come up with something. Yeah. So you have a lot of data at your fingertips. I feel like you do. There might be some data out there.

[00:36:58] Kyle: I, you know, what, if, if I was a better business person, I’d probably. Parse all that out a little bit better. Um, but I have not. There are some things people have asked for, and I’ll sit and think about it and just say, you know, we had something come up this week that the Airtable thing, somebody asked mm-hmm.

[00:37:13] could you make an adaptation of this? But instead of using Airtable use Notion, which has some similar things in there. Mm-hmm. and I thought about it for a second, I’m like, no, I’m not gonna do that. Yeah, I could do it, but I don’t know Notion really well. Yeah. I can’t handle the support on all that, like mm-hmm, if you already know Notion, buy this and make your copy in Notion.

[00:37:31] Mm-hmm, but you know, I couldn’t do that. So I’m fairly picky about some of those things. Needs to be something I’m interested in and mm-hmm, uh, feel like I could do a good job with. Cuz I don’t wanna just sell something to sell it. I mean, part of this is the community that I have that would be the potential buyers for all this.

[00:37:47] These are the people I hang out with every day, right? Mm-hmm. So if I sell them something crappy, they’re gonna let me know about it and I’m gonna see them every day. So, right. I try to be really careful about what that is. Uh, I, I, [00:38:00] I do think, you know, I’m. I’ve never come, come into the, the situation of like, I’m the authority and you know.

[00:38:07] Mm-hmm. I’m the teacher and you’re the student or anything. We’re kind of all in the trenches together, figuring things out. That’s, so I think there’s some, some problems that come up a lot that other people have come up with great solutions and I love to share those and talk about those. Mm-hmm. And I use those myself, so, uh, there’s no reason for me to reinvent the wheel on that.

[00:38:23] Mm-hmm. And like I said, when, when I find some, when something clicks for me and I’m like, oh my gosh, I finally figured this out, then I’m definitely open to those opportunities. But I’m, I’m not actively trying to come up with ideas mm-hmm, uh, for that purpose necessarily.

[00:38:38] Rene: Yeah. And I think it’s a, a good idea not to force yourself into something like, because, you know, you just, your heart wouldn’t be in it probably.

[00:38:44] And you know, I think people can see that on the other end. So, you know, I think that’s not a good strategy.

[00:38:50] Kyle: I’m in a fortunate position that it’s not like I have to live off this. Yeah. It’s, it’s a secondary income stream. Mm-hmm, which is great. I like it. Uh, it’s very nice to have. I would recommend it for everyone. Yes.

[00:38:59] Uh, but I’m not, I’m not living off of it for sure.

[00:39:02] Rene: And those sales I bet feel really good. I thought what you were going to say is, you know, when you, you know, charge somebody for a website, they’re paying, you know, some thousands of dollars, you know, it feels like X but when somebody, you know, pays 20, 30 bucks, whatever, you’re like golfing or at the grocery store, it feels better.

[00:39:19] Like, it actually feels like, what is that like about the, you know, it’s not, I don’t know what it is about it, but I, I do think that’s a great feeling. Um, and I just, I want people to have that feeling

[00:39:28] Kyle: Like I know, and I feel like I’ve become a little bit numb to that cuz I don’t pay as much attention anymore.

[00:39:34] But I do remember those first days just looking at my phone, like mm-hmm. I just woke up this morning and there was 10 sales overnight. I just literally made money while I was sleeping. Mm-hmm. And that’s a, that’s a crazy thing when you think about it. Mm-hmm, uh, especially for, for digital products, it’s because there’s, you know, unlimited inventory on it.

[00:39:50] Yes. Which is pretty cool. So yes. If, yeah, if anybody out there has some idea you feel like you’ve, uh, figured something out that the rest of the people haven’t figured out yet? I would, I would highly encourage it, for sure. [00:40:00]

[00:40:00] Rene: Yes. Okay. Well, so that leads into my next question. What two to three things do you recommend for someone?

[00:40:04] So there’s somebody out there, there are people out there who have not created any products mm-hmm, so you know, what are, what are your thoughts, you know, based on all of your experience, um, you know, what are maybe like the top couple things that you do or don’t recommend?

[00:40:17] Kyle: Okay. So I would say one, be your own customer, right?

[00:40:21] Mm-hmm, like, make something that you would find tons of value in and, and be honest about that, right? Because sometimes we just want something to work so bad, we’ll kind of mm-hmm, I know this isn’t right, but I just really want this to work, so I’m gonna do it anyway. You know, be your, be your own customer.

[00:40:35] Be your most critical customer. You know, if you make something that you are actually gonna use every day, then there’s gonna be a lot of other people that will use it as well. So I think that’s, that’s one huge one. Um, you know, we kind of talked about thinking about your peers as potential customers for things, and I think that’s something that not everybody’s, uh, honed in on, but I think it’s such a great opportunity to kind of kill two birds with one stone.

[00:40:59] Mm-hmm, fix something in your own business and then help others in your same situation, especially with, you know, There’s a TikTok account for every, uh, every industry that exists now, right? Like if, if you like to watch birds sleep mm-hmm, there’s probably a whole group of people that love to watch birds sleep.

[00:41:15] Uh, so if you have some kind of product in mind for that, you have potential people to sell it to. So I would definitely think about those peer relationships as well. Uh, people that are in your same industry. Like I said, there’s always people coming up new into the business, uh, and everybody always likes learning a new trick anyways, even if they’ve been doing it for a long time.

[00:41:33] Uh, the other thing I would say, one thing we, we struggled with was, um, when we first started selling it, we were selling. So what I’m gonna talk about is like your actual, like logistics. How did, how do your sales work, your point of sales service, and all that. Um, I think when we first did it, it was just like a, a plain form on our website that connected to an email system and kind of emailed everything over.

[00:41:57] That became, uh, really quickly [00:42:00] unfeasible. We moved everything into WooCommerce, which is like a e-commerce thing for, for WordPress. For digital products, it ended up being overkill, um, and, and a problem. And then so we’ve moved the products again to a, another platform. Uh, and I just wish I would’ve thought about all that sooner, like,

[00:42:19] If, if you think the, if you think you’re gonna be selling this product for a while, it’s worth it to invest in a good system to make all this happen, that that will do everything without having to patch stuff together. I, I’m a website designer and a tinkerer and all that, so I’m fine with like, yeah, patching a bunch of different things together.

[00:42:34] I can make it all work, but when you get busy with other things and this, this product becomes something that’s working behind the scenes off of automation, all that, you don’t wanna have to be in there tinkering with that all the time. So for me, we spent a bunch of money on the Thrive Cart, which is like a cart system.

[00:42:50] Um, and that was some of the best money we ever spent because it just, takes care of everything for me. Mm-hmm. and I don’t have to like, keep plugging wires into things and all that to keep Yes. Keep the system alive. It just kind of self maintained. So I would definitely invest in something or if, if you’re not the technical type person, uh, find somebody who is and mm-hmm.

[00:43:09] get some good recommendations on what’s gonna be the best thing to use? Not what’s the cheapest or the, you know, the easiest right now is what’s the best thing I can use. And it’s gonna save you a lot of heartache cuz I know we have, we have customers in three different systems now. So if I do have some kind of thing I have to follow up on, I have to go track that customer down through three different systems.

[00:43:28] Mm-hmm. And find where they bought it. And it’s a huge nightmare every time I do it.

[00:43:32] Rene: Yeah, I didn’t think of that. Um, I do think it’s, you know, with the first product, I wonder. Like I kind of advocate, you know, to kind of test it out, right? Like, you know, put it on Gumroad or whatever. Sure. Just to see if it’s getting any traction, uh, you know, before you spend a ton of money on, you know, Easy Digital Downloads or whatever your delivery is.

[00:43:54] Um, because I, you know, going into it, spending a ton of money and not knowing, but I do think that if you get that validation, [00:44:00] if you can get it beforehand, great. Yes. Pick the right platform. Right. You know, based on everything else. Um, but if you get that validation quickly, then yes, I would say, yeah. Move quickly.

[00:44:09] Um, that way you, like you said, you don’t have three, that sounds, three different systems with Yeah, yeah. Stuff all over the place.

[00:44:16] Kyle: I mean, I think the goal for everybody’s gonna be a, you know, you’re gonna spend a lot of time on the product up, up front, but mm-hmm, the goal eventually with any digital product is that it kind of just works in the background and you don’t have to maintain it all day.

[00:44:26] Mm-hmm. So if you can set those systems up in the beginning for that to be successful, that’s, that’s a whole lot easier.

[00:44:32] Rene: Yeah. And a machine that it, like, like you said, like that runs in the background that you don’t have to tinker with. I think that’s a good analogy. That, you know, you’re doing a thing, and then something is just running back there.

[00:44:42] Right, right. You know that, that’s just working. Yeah. So I like that. That’s awesome. Cool. Well, thank you so much. So where, tell us where people can find you. Where do you want people to go next now after this?

[00:44:52] Kyle: So, awesome. If, if you’re a web developer or work in the WordPress world, definitely come join us in The Admin Bar.

[00:44:58] You can go to theadminbar.com and has links for our community and all that kind of stuff on there. Uh, if you wanna check out my agency, it’s uh, uh, ogalweb.com. You can check that out there. I’m, uh, I’m sure you’ll include links and all that. Yes, the links. But I’m happy to connect with people. If anybody has any questions or anything, I’m happy to answer any questions of, of any weird things I said in here.

[00:45:18] If you need clarification on that, I’m happy to do that. So, uh, just thank you so much for having me on and, and inviting me to do this as I’m really grateful.

[00:45:26] Rene: Yeah, I’m so excited. Uh, it’s gonna be, I can’t wait for the people to listen. I realize saying that now sounds weird because by the time people are listening, they’ll be listening.

[00:45:32] But, you know. Anyway, I’m excited. So I think it’s gonna be great. But thank you so much again for coming on.

[00:45:38] Kyle: Absolutely. Thank you.

[00:45:39] Rene: Hey, thanks for listening. I’d love to continue the conversation in your inbox. Email SUBSCRIBE to hey at yfdp.show or sign up in the show notes to get bimonthly emails about how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. Can’t wait to see you there.