Offering value in each part of a sales funnel with Kathleen Celmins

[00:00:00] Rene: Hey everyone. Welcome to Your First Digital Product, a show that helps maxed-out service providers create their first digital product so they can gain an additional income stream, grow their impact without increasing one-on-one work and experience more time freedom. On the show, I talk to business owners who have launched digital products and dig deep into how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. I’m your host, Rene Morozowich. Let’s go.

[00:00:28] Hey everybody. Today I’m here with Kathleen Celmins. Kathleen is a desert dwelling yogi, who has a long background in digital marketing. She’s helped a lot of people build their first digital product, and she’s also passionate about helping solopreneurs charge what they’re worth, which often means reaching out to new people. Hey Kathleen, how are you?

[00:00:46] Kathleen: I’m well, thanks Rene. How are you?

[00:00:48] Rene: I’m good, thanks. I’m so glad we got this scheduled. I know it’s been a lot of back and forth, but I’m really excited to hear about your first product and your current product, and then if you had any in between.

[00:00:57] So why don’t you tell us a little bit more about yourself?

[00:01:00] Kathleen: Sure, yeah. I’ve been at this a long time. And so, my first digital product was in the personal finance space and it was, ooh, let’s call it 2013, maybe 2014. I looked, but I couldn’t see. Mm-hmm. Because I got your questions in advance, I thought, well, maybe I’ll look and see if I have a date.

[00:01:18] No, I was not great at record keeping, still not great at record keeping, but it was a course about how to save half your income. I think it was like $99 and it was very short. Okay. ’cause like, how to save half your income.

[00:01:39] The tactics of it is, is like, you know, figure out what your income is and put half of it in a different account. Yes. Like that’s the entire, the entire tactical mm-hmm. Strategy. Right. But it ended up being, it was a lot more mindset oriented. How to get into the idea of saving half your income.

[00:01:59] So [00:02:00] anyway, I probably did just about everything wrong, including there. I can’t remember what program I used, but it was, I accidentally had people on recurring payments. Oh. So a year later somebody said, well, why did I get another $99 charge from you? And I thought, my bad. Refund. Let’s figure that out.

[00:02:19] Mm-hmm. And then I made a few more with, when I was with that company, I was a partner on the Stacking Benjamins podcast, and we had a couple of different I know. It’s fun. It was fun. As a partner we had created some other personal finance courses that I accidentally deleted all off of YouTube.

[00:02:38] And YouTube tells you when you delete a video like four times, like this is not recoverable. Mm-hmm. But I didn’t look at that. And so those went away. Sorry to my former business partners. That was not intentional sabotage, but once I, once I left that partnership in 2018, I helped other people create products, and I still do that because I think that digital products are a really great way to add leverage.

[00:03:05] Specifically for my freelancer friends out there who don’t realize how tied they are to client work until, mm-hmm. Like they hurt themselves or they’re sick, uhhuh, or they go on vacation for two weeks and they come back and realize that their monthly income was half of what it was last month.

[00:03:23] So I am a very big proponent in digital products and courses and templates and swipe files. Mm-hmm. And all of those types of things. So I’m excited to talk about those. Yeah.

[00:03:34] Rene: Awesome. So how did you get into creating that first product? You mentioned you were a partner. Like is it something that you and the group decided to do? Like how did it come to be that you created that?

[00:03:45] Kathleen: Well, it’s funny, it’s sort of the same way that. I teach other people is if you get the same question three times, you have the basis for a digital product. Mm-hmm. And so I again, this is so long ago, but I [00:04:00] was in on like MSN Money and Yahoo Finance talking about how I’ve saved half my income.

[00:04:06] And again, the tactics are very, very simple. But the, the impact is really big. And so I got several, 3, 5, 8 people asking like, okay, how did you do it? And so we thought, well, okay, well let’s break it down. Because the truth is you do need to have a separate account and that you can’t really access across town, online something that you could get to in an emergency, but you should put half your income in and you do it first, and you don’t do it after your spending.

[00:04:34] So there is some practical steps to, to do it. And we thought, okay, well let’s try this out. And this was in the era before any webcams were better than a potato. Very, very bad. Mm-hmm. So what we, what we did was we recorded ’cause audio has is far surpasses video in, in terms of how good of a quality it was earlier on.

[00:05:01] Mm-hmm. So we recorded it, and then I made slide decks later. Okay. That matched the, the audio. Mm-hmm. Which I wouldn’t necessarily recommend today. That’s the long way to do it. Mm-hmm. But it worked out. I mean, it, it was a pretty little course, you know? Yeah. And I, other things that I wouldn’t do now include like, that was it.

[00:05:22] It it there. I didn’t have an additional workbook that you could download for. Mm-hmm. As an upsell or I, there was no funnel whatsoever. Mm-hmm. It was like, here’s this. Checkout. Thank you. Bye. And so there was no real next step that people could take. Yeah. Other than joining our community. Mm-hmm.

[00:05:41] Rene: Yeah, I think that next step is so important because really like you’re just guiding people through, and especially service providers, freelancers or whatever.

[00:05:47] Like it could be to work with you, it could be, you know, whatever that step is, a one-off coaching call or something, like giving people that option. I don’t know if people are scared of the word funnel, but like really it’s just kind of like guiding them on a [00:06:00] path of what they can do and people can drop off wherever they want, but yeah, I think it’s so important to have something else to give, to offer them.

[00:06:07] Kathleen: I think people hate the word funnel because they’ve been on the receiving end of a bad funnel, right? Mm-hmm. Where you think, well, I, I just read a 7,000 word sales page and I’m convinced that this will solve my problems. Mm-hmm. And now you’re telling me it won’t. Yes. So don’t do it like that. Yeah. And think of it more, to me it’s more like a restaurant experience, you know?

[00:06:30] The steaks at Ruth Chris come a la carte. Do you want the potatoes? They’re delicious. Mm-hmm. You know, it’s not a big deal if you don’t. You don’t. If the waiter asks you at a steakhouse, if you want potatoes and you don’t. You don’t flip ’em off,

[00:06:45] right?

[00:06:45] Rene: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Options, options, people. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I totally agree.

[00:06:50] Yeah, for sure. Awesome. So you, anything else I guess you wanna say about that first product? Or maybe what lessons did you take from it that you did use in your subsequent products? Do you wanna talk about anything that you’ve done between then and the product you have now?

[00:07:04] Kathleen: Yeah. You know, I’ve done lots of things between then and now and I, what I find really funny is that the hit of a sale. The dopamine hit of a sale. Yes.

[00:07:16] Is as strong for a a hundred dollar product as it is for a $10,000 program. Mm-hmm. I can’t explain why. Yes. But it is so exciting to get to, oh my gosh. Mm-hmm. Somebody wants what I just spent hours, sometimes weeks together.

[00:07:31] Rene: And you’re the grocery store too, and you get that email and you’re like, ooh, I’m at the grocery store and this is happening.

[00:07:35] Kathleen: And then it’s like they, it followed quickly by, I hope it’s working. Did it deliver properly? Yes. No matter how much you test it. Mm-hmm. Once you get those first couple of people through, you’re like, sending the individual emails being like, just, just curious. Did, how did it work? Yes. What did you see on step two?

[00:07:52] Yes. Yes. So yeah. I’ve done one-on-one coaching. I’ve done, done for you services. And [00:08:00] now I’ve sort of circled back and I have now I have a group coaching program and a lower ticket digital product and. Like I said, I’m like ready to launch it. So we’re, we’re talking in September, so by the time this goes live, it will be launched and tested.

[00:08:16] Don’t worry. But it’s brand new and I’m like, it’s the dorkiest thing I’ve ever done. The branding is so. I mean, the branding’s beautiful. ’cause I have a designer, but the, the word that I bought, the URL that I bought is quizillionaire.com. Okay. And it is both the stupidest and best idea I’ve ever had. So, like, nice.

[00:08:38] I can’t, like, it’s so dumb. It’s, I, I mean, all portmanteaus are dumb, but this is really dumb. And but I, every time I see it, I can’t, like, I can’t help but be like, eh.

[00:08:51] Rene: Well, that makes it even more exciting. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about it. What’s the product and what problem does it solve for people?

[00:08:57] Kathleen: Yeah. So one of the things that I have done, and I’m sure everybody else has have, if you’ve been, if you’ve been doing any of this business, business online stuff, any amount of time, you’ve had several different ideas. Some of which flopped. No big deal, no judgment. I’ve been there too. And so I had, I was thinking, gosh, you know, this other thing that I was teaching and I was teaching people how to reach out to other people on LinkedIn and just as I was like finishing up that product, it stopped working as well.

[00:09:27] So it used to bring me 20 to 30 new conversations per week. And then I think other people learned that method. Mm-hmm. And it stopped working as well. And so as soon as that happens, like your confidence, just like tanks. Mm-hmm. And so, mm-hmm. I sat and I thought, okay, what of all the like marketing things I’ve done, what have been the most fun and the most lucrative for my clients?

[00:09:53] And. I didn’t have an instant answer. But then over the next [00:10:00] week, three different people, and I mentioned this before, I did not mean to do this closed loop, open loop thing, but I, but three different people asked me about quizzes. Mm-hmm. And I thought, well, I think that might be it. Because quizzes are so fun to make because they, they take both your left brain and your right brain, the mm-hmm.

[00:10:17] The hooking up side and the copywriting creative writing side, and they’re the thing that I’ve done in my career that is closest to a viral success. Mm-hmm. So when I did them for clients, it was, let’s sit down and brainstorm. And I still do ’cause I love them. We’ll sit down and brainstorm and we’ll figure out what, what quiz to make.

[00:10:40] Mm-hmm. The first one I did made my client $60,000 in affiliate revenue in two months. Ooh. Okay. I thought, well, maybe the, okay, this a, this was fun to build. And that one was really complicated logic. I felt like every time we’re doing those, it feels like the John Nash and A Beautiful Mind like Yes.

[00:11:00] Rings and Post-Its and Yes, yes. I love that movie. Me too. But that’s not like, it’s not a great example ’cause that’s like the, the sign that he’s losing his mind. Yeah, yeah. But whatever. We’ll put that aside. But that always makes me feel like that. And then, the next one I did as soon as we launched it resulted in a 50% conversion rate to discovery calls.

[00:11:23] So in the follow-up email sequence, don’t say funnel, but that’s what it is. Mm-hmm. Journey. Yes. They were and they were, they were booking discovery call. Half of the people who took this quiz were booking discovery calls to work with somebody. Mm-hmm. They, the, that client had to turn off, paid traffic to the quiz because Wow.

[00:11:41] The discovery calls were, were booked out so far into the future that she was already booked mm-hmm. With her service, like six months out. So that one again, was really, really successful. And I’ve done others too, where 800 people took it in a day, [00:12:00] or the, the last one that I have done for a client was which, uh, based on your experience, what should you look for?

[00:12:10] And it was really, really well tailored to her audience and her digital products. Mm-hmm. And we launched that one in April, and so far, almost 14,000 people have taken it. Wow. And so, so like, yeah. Like not, you know, this is not how I made $100,000 in five minutes. Mm-hmm. It’s clo it’s as close to viral success as I’ve found.

[00:12:33] And because people keep asking me about it and because every time I talk about them, people are, Ooh. Mm-hmm. I thought, you know, I, I think there’s something here. And oddly quizillionaire.com was, was available. And so I thought, well, I’m gonna do this two ways. I’m gonna build a group where I’m, I’ll take people through in a small group setting, and by the end of, of the 60 day mastermind, everybody will have a full quiz funnel done.

[00:13:00] Mm-hmm. And then, but that’s the higher end. But I have like, I’ve done this before and I’m an SOP nerd, and so I can just give people my process. Mm-hmm. Because a lot of, it’s pretty easy. The alignment piece, the brainstorming, how. How not to make a quiz that is either too broad, which nacho topping are you?

[00:13:22] Mm-hmm. Or too, or too sales focused. Which of my products should you buy first? Love that. Those, that, that’s the biggest, the the biggest piece of importance. The rest of it can be, mm-hmm. Just. Like copied and pasted and mm-hmm. You can use my software and all that. So that’s, so those are the two different sides that I’ve been building for the last couple of months. Very excitedly.

[00:13:49] Rene: Yeah. That’s so cool. Okay, I have a ton of questions. Let me see which one I should ask first. So the, let’s just talk about the, you have the individual, so, so people can come and buy it. And [00:14:00] then I assume you have something that says like, Hey, and if you need help with this, come and join our group.

[00:14:05] Kathleen: Yeah, well, so, because actually the, the sales funnel side is all DIY, so, okay. You can buy the toolkit that has all these, all, all the different things you need to think about and all the different, there’s like seven different quiz examples. So that’s the main offer. And then the next, like the, what they call the order bump is do you want 50 Canva templates that help sell, like, help bring your audience to your quiz.

[00:14:34] And then let’s see if I can do this by heart. The next piece, I I talked to my software company that I use for quiz building and they said, yeah, sure, you can have, you can sell lifetime licenses under your account. Hmm. Okay. So I did. So that was step two. Because I know that I hate or recurring subscriptions.

[00:14:59] Yeah. Especially ’cause like the front end offer $49, like mm-hmm. $49 plus. $49 to this software company every month for the rest of your career. Right. So, so we did, so that’s the next one. And then there’s other ways to go deeper. You can have all of my templates or you can have mm-hmm.

[00:15:16] Just the email follow up template for the quiz funnel itself. I think I’m missing one, but it’s options on how, if you want to go deeper mm-hmm and you wanna be positioned in a way that you’re doing this Exactly right. Oh, there’s the last one is if you want me to walk through Okay.

[00:15:36] Some brainstorming with you. Mm-hmm. You can do that, and it’s super, super discounted and it mm-hmm. That offer’s only available in that funnel, so you have to say yes or no to each piece, and then at the end it’s like, look, the alignment is really, really important. You don’t wanna fill your list with people who are never gonna buy from you.

[00:15:53] That’s just giving ConvertKit and its competitors more money. Yes. With and ruining your open rate and mm-hmm. Deliverability [00:16:00] and all that. So alignment’s super, super important there. Mm-hmm. And so yeah, it’s got the, the funnel’s got about five, maybe six steps. Mm-hmm. And it’s not crazy. I don’t feel like people are annoyed with how many, ’cause it’s just different options again for how it mm-hmm.

[00:16:16] How it goes. But yeah, on the one hand it felt like it took too long to put that together. But on the other hand, if you think about what, like that, what you’re building when you’re building a sales funnel that has those different pieces is you’re building a business. Mm-hmm. It shouldn’t.

[00:16:32] Come together quickly. Right. If you’re asking somebody to spend money on something, it should be something that took you time. Mm-hmm. And good, your good energy to put together.

[00:16:45] Rene: Yeah, for sure. I love that you have like the, the digital product, but also other things before your time, like other things that are, that you can offer them. Like you mentioned the Canva templates. The, so it’s a affiliate link.

[00:17:01] Is that how it works? The, is it an affiliate?

[00:17:03] Kathleen: No, you pay me one time.

[00:17:04] Rene: Oh, okay.

[00:17:05] Kathleen: For lifetime access. Okay. Okay. So it’s like my own little AppSumo deal.

[00:17:09] Rene: Nice. Okay, great. Okay. So but still, like not directly tied to your time, but not in that original offer. So like, I love that combination. I think we, sometimes we’ll get stuck in it has to be this way or this way or this way, but there’s a lot of different ways that you can do this.

[00:17:24] You know, that may feel good for you. Some people may not have a software to sell so that, you know, wouldn’t be an option. But having another digital product kind of like right on the end of it and having kind of that sequence and then, you know, other offerings, like, I dunno, I think it’s a fun, it’s a fun path.

[00:17:37] Kathleen: Yeah. It’s so fun. And so my decision to not have the group offer in the funnel was like, the bridge was too far. Mm-hmm. So the, it’s tough to say like, Hey, so you just spent $49, maybe you opted into other things, so you spent maybe a couple hundred dollars. Do you wanna 10 x that? Like Yeah. Right. It’s just, I, [00:18:00] I, I feel like the responsibility of a sales funnel and in, in, in any digital product is to bring you buyers.

[00:18:09] Mm-hmm. And to solve a small problem. And so the DIY stuff, like some people can do it and then some people just buy it and never touch it. Mm-hmm. And so you wanna, you wanna talk to those people and see if they, if there’s another step they can take.

[00:18:25] So my intention is to communicate that through email. Mm-hmm. After they’ve bought, yes. Yeah. So here’s how to use it. Here’s how, how you can combine these things. If you forgot to buy the Canva templates and you haven’t mm-hmm. Told anybody about your, your quiz online, you should go back and do that.

[00:18:45] Mm-hmm. Here, you know, like stuff like that.

[00:18:47] Rene: Yeah, but you, but you have those offerings. Mm-hmm. Like you, like I think you mentioned like early on, some people like you only have one thing to say and that’s it. And there’s no like, other path. So like you have that as an option for some people for later, you know, segment the list and stuff.

[00:19:01] So like it’s, I know, it’s, it’s a nice, robust offering, you know, the group of offerings. So it’s cool. Yay. Okay. So where then are you finding people to, like sometimes these things are meta, so do you have a quiz that leads people into this? Like how are you finding people you know who are interested would be interested in this product, and who are they actually?

[00:19:25] Kathleen: Yeah, so, right. So I do have a quiz, is your business ready for a quiz? What I’m testing is

[00:19:34] traffic to the low ticket offer. Okay. I’ve never done anything like this before. I’ve always done, when I’ve done ads in the past, it’s been traffic to an opt-in form to watch a video. Okay. And that’s usually a book a call funnel. So, I’m trying to get you on the phone to book you something higher ticket.

[00:19:50] Mm-hmm. And so this is, this is a new experiment for me, so maybe we can talk in a year and see how it went. Right. But in order to [00:20:00] make it make sense, it has to be more than $49 total. Mm-hmm. Because there’s a really good chance that I will spend that much to get a buyer. Mm-hmm. So, which is fine if, if it’s a break even email gathering tool, that’s totally fine.

[00:20:18] But if that’s all I’m making and I’m hoping to make a lot of money on that, just that one $49 piece, I don’t think it’s gonna be a good use of my advertising dollars.

[00:20:32] Rene: Right. Yes. Yeah. So the, just kinda weighing the pros and cons even from purchasing software, sort of, you know, perspective or yeah advertising dollars is what you’re getting out of it, proportionate to what you’re putting into it. So, you know, thinking about that. Yeah. When you decide to price or Yeah. What you’re offering, I think is really important.

[00:20:54] Kathleen: Yeah, and it’s, it’s, I’m using the same principles that all advertisers use. Mm-hmm.

[00:21:00] Like the supermarket has a loss leader, it’s their french bread. Mm-hmm. Right? It costs them much more than 99 cents. But they think that if they’re always baking French bread, then you’re gonna buy things that are higher margin. So thinking of your front end offer, your, your initial offer as that loss leader where you, where, you know, it does solve the problem, but it’s an incomplete solution.

[00:21:25] So then they’ve got their wallets open, then they’ve, then they’re much more likely to talk to believe you when they, when you say like, Hey, I’ve got something that you might like that. Mm-hmm. Because you bought this but not this, you might be really interested in X, Y, Z.

[00:21:42] Rene: Right. Yeah. I think that that’s, that is very true. I do think that a lot of times, yeah, we expect that first product or that digital product to just be profitable. Like there’s not anything else to it.

[00:21:55] But yeah, it could be for list building. It could be a great paid lead magnet. So it [00:22:00] itself may not make you the money that you’re looking for, but the things that it does for you, increasing your audience or getting you more one-on-one work. Like those are the things that you are really looking for. So I think going into it, yeah, you have to think about, okay, what do I actually want to get out of this?

[00:22:17] And then what’s the path that I can take to it? So like, if you really just want the product to be profitable, you would approach it in a different way than if you’re just looking to get more one-on-one clients, or if you’re just looking to get you know, in increase in your audience or whatever it is.

[00:22:31] So I think, you know, it’s important to look at it that way, that the product isn’t just the product itself, standalone make money or lose money.

[00:22:41] Kathleen: I also think that the problem, like, that’s a really good point, but I also think that the problem with creators specifically is that we like to create and we don’t like to sell.

[00:22:54] Mm-hmm. And so we’ll send one half-hearted email that’s, I worked really hard on this, but you whatever, you probably don’t want it. Exactly. And then when it doesn’t sell, it doesn’t, when it doesn’t sell, then you’re like, Well, you draw this conclusion, and this is crazy to me. Well, digital products don’t work for my industry.

[00:23:14] Mm-hmm. My niche, my business, they might work for Amy Porterfield, but they don’t work for me. Yes. And then you give up. After not trying very hard. Mm-hmm. You know, it’s like I’m a parent of young children. That’d be like, well, vegetables just don’t work.

[00:23:32] Rene: Exactly. That’s great.

[00:23:33] Kathleen: Like you’ve gotta try harder. Yes. To get them to eat some vegetables.

[00:23:37] Rene: You have to try a couple different things. And I assume I only have one, but I assume you have to try different things with different kids too. Like where something works for one kid may not work for another. So Yeah, I think. And you mentioned experimenting earlier on.

[00:23:51] And I think that’s so important. Like you have to just try and, and not like nose to the grindstone, try, try, try so, so hard, but try this, see [00:24:00] if it works. Try this other thing, see if it works, find what works. And then things may not work over time, like you mentioned about LinkedIn, like finding something that worked for a while and then, you know, it came to the end of its life. Time to pivot.

[00:24:12] Kathleen: Yeah, and I think I, I think we just. We give up so easily. Mm-hmm. Because it’s hard. Mm-hmm. This is, yes. You have so much more earning potential. If you build digital products and you have services and you have offers, you have, you can do much more financially in this world than you can working for somebody else.

[00:24:34] Mm-hmm. That’s true. But it’s the hardest thing you’re ever going to do. And. It’s so easy to think, well, if this doesn’t work, then I gotta go back to the office. Maybe, but I mean, let’s bring kids back into it. If something doesn’t work for a kid the first time, they have more curiosity about like, Ooh, what if I try this?

[00:24:57] Mm-hmm. What if I try that and we lose that when it turn, when it becomes necessary to cr create these things. For our livelihood. Mm-hmm. We can’t, we feel like we can’t say what if or how can this work when it’s like, but if I don’t make X dollars this month, bad things will happen. Right? Mm-hmm. Like there’s, there’s, when fear comes into it, experimentation, the stakes are so much higher.

[00:25:27] Mm-hmm. And I, I see that with a lot of my peers and I, I’m sad for them. It can even be worse if your first or early launch does really well, then well, if I don’t make. A hundred thousand dollars. Mm-hmm. This launch, I’m setting it all on fire. Mm-hmm. It’s like, no, don’t be.

[00:25:46] Rene: Yeah. It’s still valuable.

[00:25:47] Yes. It’s different and it, and launches are different too. Again, to go back to kids like this launch versus that launch, totally different. I have a client who actually just launched a product yesterday and it’s already different and she’s feeling a [00:26:00] certain way. Yeah, I’m taking a lot of that kind of internally.

[00:26:03] Like, I didn’t make this many sales in this amount of time. Like, no, you can’t look at it like that. That was a different thing. It was actually a seasonal product, so there was a time urgency there that this one is not. And this one she can actually sell year round though, so she can leverage different times of the year.

[00:26:18] So I think it’s really in how you look at it. Yeah. And not looking at it just the worst way possible, like. You know, it’s, and you did put so much time into it.

[00:26:28] Kathleen: And it’s tough too because like, we’re solopreneurs, right? Mm-hmm. So when, when a launch doesn’t go the way we think, we think, well, not that didn’t work, but I’m worthless.

[00:26:42] Right? I’m useless. Yes. And I’ve said this in a, in another interview. Somebody asked, well, how do you charge what you’re worth? And I was like, well, you’re worthless. And the whole, like, it was a group, like it was a, I spoke in front of a group and they were mad. Yeah. And I said, well, let me explain. You can’t, like, you don’t have a value.

[00:27:02] You can’t possibly charge what you’re worth. Maybe worthless isn’t right. Maybe you’re priceless. Do you like that better? You wouldn’t believe me if I said that either, but at least you’re listening. If I say it’s impossible to charge what you’re worth because human value, human life doesn’t have a monetary value.

[00:27:21] Right. And we get out of that mentality when we sit down and think, yeah, okay, but like, I need this to pay X, Y, Z, or I’m. I don’t have any value as a person. Mm-hmm. No.

[00:27:34] Rene: Yeah. And going back to that financial part, I do think that solopreneurs and freelancers could do way better in the finances of it.

[00:27:43] And, you know, putting that money aside, and this isn’t just like some hobby, you know, that we’re all just doing like hopefully this is paying the bills and allowing you to go on vacation and allowing you to save for your retirement and your kids’ college, or whatever it is that’s important to you. So I think that [00:28:00] when we don’t do that, then yes, the fear comes in and it’s the same thing that happens whenever you.

[00:28:05] You have a lead for a one-on-one client that you’re like, well, there’s some red flags here, but I really need the money. Like, you know how that’s gonna turn out? You don’t need to go down that road again. Already expensive down. It’s, it’s too expensive. Expensive.

[00:28:18] So expensive. And, and the, the mental pressure that it puts on you and, and all the doubt that it creates and all the times that they’re emailing you, and like, you don’t, you don’t need to go down that path, like you’ve already been down there before.

[00:28:31] Kathleen: Mm-hmm. Agree wholeheartedly.

[00:28:33] Rene: And I think that like, the digital products require you to put yourself out there in a different way. So like a lot of one-on-one work comes from referrals.

[00:28:41] I get a client, I work with them, they tell their friend, Hey, Rene’s awesome. Go work with her. They just roll in already thinking or knowing that it’s going to be a good experience. I give them a good experience, whatever. But like a digital product, like you, there’s no, there’s not often a word of mouth, you know, it’s, there’s ads tied to it or something.

[00:29:00] So the materials have to speak for themselves. Like, I really need to put the time into identifying like, this is the problem that this is going to solve for you. I know this is an important problem for you. Like, I think there’s a lot to it, but also like, I don’t wanna dissuade people from getting into it.

[00:29:18] You just have to start, like start and launch something and see how it goes, and then iterate from there and you’ll get better.

[00:29:25] Kathleen: Yeah, I agree with that because it’s, again, it’s, it’s not about you. Right? My quizillionaire toolkit, right? I use this example a lot. My sister just left corporate to stay at home with her son.

[00:29:39] I can send her that sales page a hundred times. She’s still not gonna buy it. She has absolutely no need for an online quiz. She just doesn’t need it. And I think when we ask our friends, Hey, would you buy this? Mm-hmm. And they say, no. What we’re actually asking is, Hey, do you like me? [00:30:00] Yes. And if they say no, you’re like, oh, they don’t like me.

[00:30:02] Mm-hmm. And it’s not, and it, it sounds like I’m belittling, but I’m not. I I don’t mean it to be, because it’s much more important to realize that what you’re creating solves a problem for a particular type of person. Mm-hmm. If you’re not talking to someone who has that problem, or you’re not talking to the right person.

[00:30:26] Or both. You’re not getting good data, right. You’re not, you’re not learning whether anybody would buy from you. Mm-hmm. And so when you, when you get the, the problem and the person figured out, then everything becomes easier. Mm-hmm. Because you can then target and you can advertise and you can. You can act like a much bigger company than a, a company of one where you’re going after people who you don’t know. You’re not referred to. You don’t want for digital products, you don’t wanna rely on referrals.

[00:31:00] They’re not expensive enough. Your services are, but yes. But your, your digital products just aren’t, even your $2,000 digital product isn’t expensive enough for referrals to pay your bills with that. Mm-hmm.

[00:31:14] Rene: Yeah. And even if your friend says they do like it, that’s not valuable either. Like, yeah, it’s great.

[00:31:19] Okay. Your friend likes you and they tell you like, okay, that’s a great product, but they’re, again, they’re not your target audience, so it doesn’t matter if they say yes or no, so don’t ask them to begin with. You know, ask somebody who does have that problem and get that feedback. Yeah. I think is really important.

[00:31:35] Kathleen: I agree.

[00:31:36] Rene: Yeah. Cool. So anything else you wanna tell us about this product and or do you wanna just give us your advice on people creating their first or second or third products?

[00:31:46] Kathleen: Let’s see. So if you want to build your email list, there is still no better way than to create an online quiz. You can go through my funnel, that’s fine.

[00:31:57] You don’t have to. But create a quiz if you wanna grow your email [00:32:00] list. Plain and simple. Buzzfeed has it right. If you don’t have Buzzfeed’s business model, then don’t do one of those generic quizzes. I, but when you’re creating a digital product, make sure it solves a narrow problem and when you can solve that problem with a digital product.

[00:32:22] Ask what’s next? And that will help you build the other pieces of your funnel. So once they solve this narrow problem, what else do they need to do? One of the questions I get a lot is once I’m done with this quiz, how do I get traffic to it?

[00:32:37] Which I think is really funny because the people who are asking me that are veteran bloggers. Like, well, how do you get, how do you get, yeah, you know, this travel to anything, right? Mm-hmm. It’s the same, the answer is the same. You know, you put it in your email footer and you put it on in a hello bar at the top of your, mm-hmm. Your webpage and then you, the greatest thing about quizzes is that you can ask the question, do you wanna take this topic quiz?

[00:33:02] And that’s it for copy you. It’s very light copywriting that even the. The, the landing page has almost no copy on it because there’s a psychological need to answer questions. Mm-hmm. So if you start the quiz without saying, if you start the quiz by saying like, Hey, click here to take our quiz. You’ll get people to do it.

[00:33:24] But if you start the quiz on, you start think on question one. Mm-hmm. You will have. It’s like 10 times the number of people who like go through the whole thing. Okay. ’cause there’s, they, there’s something about undone. Like Yeah. It’s an open loop that as soon as I get to that page, I’m like, oh, click.

[00:33:43] Yeah. That one or one A mm-hmm. Two B and then all of a sudden you’re, you’re all the way through it. And I don’t know. I, I really like quizzes for a lot of reasons. They take your person through the customer journey. They can, you can take somebody from barely problem aware [00:34:00] to not only solution aware, but that now that you’re, you’ve established yourself as an authority through this quiz.

[00:34:06] Mm-hmm. They’re more likely to buy from you than they are to go research other options. Yeah. So there, there’s a lot. A lot. Of good that comes from a quiz and then a quiz can lead to that, that digital product. Mm-hmm. Really, really nicely.

[00:34:23] Rene: Yeah. I like that. So do you, so you just mentioned like the, you know, having the people dive in right to the questions.

[00:34:29] Like, do you, I’ve seen some quizzes, actually just started to take one today, but I had to stop where it was just one question per page. Mm-hmm. Versus like many on one page. Like, do you recommend one way or the other?

[00:34:38] Kathleen: Yeah. Yeah. I like, I’ve, and I’ve tested them both. Mm-hmm. Again, psychological marketing is psychology, so if it looks like it’s a jillion questions You’re not gonna finish it.

[00:34:51] Mm-hmm. And that’s another question I get a lot is like, how many questions should a quiz be? Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s the same sort of question as like, how long should anything be, like, as long as it takes. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. How long should a podcast be? Yeah. How long should you know, whatever, how, however long it takes to fully go through.

[00:35:07] Mm-hmm. Because if you’re, if you’re. Promise is some sort of score. It can’t be one question. Yes. You know? Yes. It has to it. So, and people are committed to 10 or 15 questions mm-hmm. In an answering it, depending on what it is. Mm-hmm. And you can, you can have the AI tools help you write those questions.

[00:35:29] And they do an okay job, you know? Mm-hmm. Just like they do with any other copy. Yeah. I think it’s a good starting point.

[00:35:35] Rene: Nice. I like it. Yeah, I just, I mentioned before, like I just did a quiz for a client. I just sent it to them the other day. And it was super fun. Yeah. They had the idea to create something to generate some, you know, more people on their mailing list.

[00:35:49] And had some resources for people. Like it was a personality style quiz. I know there’s different, different style. Those are great. Mm-hmm. Quizzes. But yeah, just so like, Hey, you’re this kind of personality. Here’s some resources for [00:36:00] you. So yeah, I think super fun and I think it’ll be good for them.

[00:36:03] Kathleen: Yeah, totally. I had a call with the people behind 16 personalities. Oh. Years and years and years ago. And that’s a Myers-Briggs one. It’s 16personalities.com and they, their email list had 26 million subscribers. Whoa. Wow. So personality quizzes do real well. Wow. And that was years ago. So, so.

[00:36:21] Rene: Yeah, their site is great. I love, I love their branding. I’ve actually haven’t seen it in a while, but yeah, you would, yeah. You wanna know more about yourself really. And that’s, I think, you know, why people are, are going to take those. Do you have any, I know this is a side, we were kind of like falling down a rabbit hole here, but do you have some marketing, like recommendations like books or podcasts or something, you know, for people who do want to learn more about this?

[00:36:43] Like if they’re creating a product, like how do you actually market to people?

[00:36:48] Kathleen: I am reading Alex Hermosi’s latest book.

[00:36:51] Rene: Yes, I just got it. Yeah.

[00:36:53] Kathleen: I, I, I know that there’s a lot people like, like to say things about this guy.

[00:36:59] But I really liked his first book and I’m really liking the second book. And so I think, yeah, there are more complicated books out there, but. I would read both Hundred Million Dollar Leads and Hundred Million Dollar Offers. And if you don’t have any ideas for what you could create after reading those two books you might not have a digital product in you.

[00:37:19] Mm-hmm. I know that’s a bold statement, but that they’re so good at helping you brainstorm and list out all the different things you might create.

[00:37:30] Rene: Yeah. And really it’s not for everybody. Like I, I don’t like I. Don’t think that like every single person should create a product. Like it’s, not.

[00:37:38] Kathleen: It’s not a personality flaw.

[00:37:40] Just like everybody should be an entrepreneur. Yes, exactly. It’s not for everybody.

[00:37:43] Rene: Exactly. Yes. Or a parent or any number of things. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But I think that long-distance runner, yes. Yeah, for sure. Don’t want people to think like it’s something they have to do, like at some point in their freelance journey or whatever, like they have to have a product or it has to [00:38:00] be a certain way.

[00:38:00] There’s tons of options. Tons of ways that, tons of ways that you can. Can do things and things that, you know, may make more sense for you versus someone else. Like, I don’t know. I just think it’s important, like to tell people that.

[00:38:12] Kathleen: I do too. I, and I, I think that it’s easy as, as a solopreneur without a boss, without somebody telling you when to show up or what to create.

[00:38:23] We look for that. Mm-hmm. I know I’m not alone in that. Mm-hmm. And so, when you’re, when you’re doing that, it’s totally fine to do that. There’s plenty of people that can help guide you. But when you’re doing that, listen to yourself too. Get quiet Yes. And ha and notice how it feels. Mm-hmm. If it feels like something you are, are resisting.

[00:38:43] Mm-hmm. Listen to that. Right. Do not build yourself a prison of your own making. Right. That’s that’s, no, it’s not better than working for somebody else.

[00:38:53] Rene: Yes. Yeah, exactly. Like if you’re working for yourself, like I feel like you owe it to yourself even more to do it well. Like if you’re just going to, I think I say this in every podcast episode.

[00:39:03] Like, if you’re just going to, you know, take whatever you can get and not charge what you’re worth and all this stuff. Like just go work for somebody else. Like, you’ll get the health insurance and you’ll get like a 401k contribution. Like, you don’t have to go through all this, like of your own bookkeeping and all that stuff, like mm-hmm.

[00:39:17] But yeah, if it, if the idea excites you. Figuring out like how to go down that path, investigating, you know, and experimenting with things and you know, what, what works for you may not work for someone else and vice versa. Like, I don’t know. I just think it’s an exciting journey.

[00:39:32] Kathleen: It is an exciting journey. But if you hate. Mondays as an entrepreneur realize that you can change Yeah. At any time what you’re offering. Right. Or whether you’re working for yourself, you know?

[00:39:44] Rene: Exactly. Yeah. For sure. Yay. Well, thank you so much for being on. Can you tell us where we can find you online and how really how to spell quizillionaire?

[00:39:52] Kathleen: You can head over to thewellpaidexpert.com. Okay. There’s a link to quizillionaire there, but quizillionaire has one Z, so q [00:40:00] u i z i l l i o n a i r e .com.

[00:40:07] Rene: Awesome. So quiz and then illionaire, I guess? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Is, mm-hmm. Okay. Awesome. Perfect. I like it.

[00:40:12] Kathleen: Yeah. And yeah, the look for, there’s gonna, right now it just redirects to a page on thewellpaidexpert.com.

[00:40:18] It may forever, but it’s gonna some point have its own branding and it’s gonna be as nerdy as the title.

[00:40:25] Rene: Nice. I like it. Yay. Well, thank you so much for coming on today and sharing your story with us.

[00:40:29] Kathleen: Thanks, Rene.

[00:40:30] Rene: Hey, thanks for listening. I’d love to continue the conversation in your inbox. Email SUBSCRIBE to hey at yfdp.show or sign up in the show notes to get bimonthly emails about how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. Can’t wait to see you there.