Creating for yourself and for your audience with Jolene Dames

[00:00:00] Rene: Hey everyone. Welcome to Your First Digital Product, a show that helps maxed-out service providers create their first digital product so they can gain an additional income stream, grow their impact without increasing one-on-one work and experience more time freedom. On the show, I talk to business owners who have launched digital products and dig deep into how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. I’m your host, Rene Morozowich. Let’s go.

[00:00:28] Hey everyone. Today I’m here with Jolene Dames, and Jolene is an artist who documents her world travels via painting, writing, and moving images.

[00:00:36] She also works behind the scenes of movies, television, theater, and live entertainment. Hey Jolene, how are you today?

[00:00:43] Jolene: Hi, Rene. How are you?

[00:00:44] Rene: I’m good thanks. Excited that you’re here and you just launched your first product, so I’m really excited about that. So let’s tell everybody all about it.

[00:00:54] Jolene: I wanted to do a house sitting guide book that was coupled with the video about my first, um, international house sitting experience.

[00:01:02] And typically I’m an artist in my own right, so I paint large scale. And I also, like my day job is working in movies and television, behind the scenes painting sets. Um, technically I’m a camera scenic, which means that I go with the production as they’re filming. I fix things right to camera as needed visually.

[00:01:23] So that’s my background. And then as I’m traveling around the world, I just kind of like take those two backgrounds and then do those things and yeah.

[00:01:31] Rene: Yeah. That’s awesome. So your house sitting, uh, you said your first experience that was in Ireland?

[00:01:39] Jolene: Yeah, so 10 years ago I, uh, created the Globe Squatters, two artists on a little adventure house sitting their way around the world because I got turned onto house sitting.

[00:01:50] I can’t even remember how I got turned onto it, but, we were reading about something and, and I was like, wouldn’t it be cool to be the first, like people to house sit their way around the world? So I [00:02:00] started like docking these house sits or like setting up these house sits rather, that were like, we went to Ireland, Scotland, England, France.

[00:02:08] Ireland was the first one that we went to, and that was 10 years ago. And then the following year they asked us to come back. And so I was actually there nine years ago. But, um, it was a really good experience and it was such a unique way to travel that I felt like I wanted to share it with everybody.

[00:02:25] Rene: Yeah, that’s awesome. And you have so many, like, additional experiences. So the guide really is kind of like a hybrid of how you can do this, how you get started, plus like, hey, here’s some real life experience. Like, check us out. And you did a, a bunch of different things, right? Like the video and then you had some art in there as well.

[00:02:43] Jolene: Yeah. So it’s kind of, it’s kind of complex because I’m an artist, so it all becomes complex, you know, in the land of creating. But um, it started out like the guide that I actually made for this was the only thing that I really had to get into and actually flesh out and like create. Mm-hmm. Um, the video we had actually made 10 years ago when we went, um, so well, we got the footage 10 years ago, the following year we put it together and it actually, the reason we put the video together was because we were putting together a pilot episode to give to production companies.

[00:03:24] Because we wanted to, um, we wanted to be on the travel channel. That was the goal. And just really revolutionized the way people traveled. So we did get picked up by a production company, um, and we signed on with them for a year. And at the time we had started to put little snippets of the video up and started to like, put this together a little bit tighter.

[00:03:47] But, um, once we signed on, we had to remove all that because it was part of the contract. Okay. And so it just got plucked outta the ethers and then it sat there until the contract ran [00:04:00] up and then a series of other life events happened. And, um, here I am 10 years later, like delivery. So, um, rewinding. The actual guide that I did is, is an up to date guide because I continued house sitting throughout the last 10 years.

[00:04:18] And so that was the real thing that I had to put together. And I wanted to link it to the video because the video really was, it, it was informative, but it was also about us, like taking care of chickens and ducks and the dog and the cat and, you know, being in Ireland. So, uh, since we were there, we saw it as like a, you know, like a way to document our experience as artists, right?

[00:04:41] So we had this whole other, tied into this launch, I tied in like a whole bunch of our paintings and photography and so I was like multi-building products as I was building a product, which. Maybe wasn’t the best thing to take on, cuz then I got a job out of town. But I think, you know, I did it pretty successfully.

[00:05:03] I think I felt good about it and it felt really good to actually release the product. So that was a lot of information at one time.

[00:05:09] Rene: Yeah, no, that’s good. It’s, I think it’s great. So tell us about the actual product creation then.

[00:05:13] So you said that you had the video already, but you put the guide together. So what did that look like? Like how long had you been wanting to do this and, and why was like now a good time to do it? So, so talk about like the, you know, how you kind of pick this back up again and then what the process was like.

[00:05:31] Jolene: Okay. So, um, my main reason for, um, putting this together was because I wanted to get my already established audience, everybody knows me as a painter. Mm-hmm. Which is great, you know, because that’s like mainly what I’ve done all my life. But I do a bunch of other artistic things and I’m like, how can I marry, how can I marry these ideas and like, put it out there and still like, [00:06:00] stay true to my artistic, like, you know, this is what I wanna do.

[00:06:04] And, um, so really it was to, to kind of just to open the door to my already existing audience and say, Hey, like, I’m kind of quirky. I do these other things. Mm-hmm. And they’d be like, what? You know, and then I peppered in the paintings and the photography within the guides so that they could like link it back to like, oh yeah, Jolene, painter.

[00:06:28] Oh yeah, Jolene, you know, photographer. Like this is what she does. Um, so the actual video itself required, um, minimal tweaks. Like I had to tweak the beginning and the ending, um, because I’ve just changed my branding. And then the actual house sitting guide was more of, you know, it turned, it started out as an 11 page PDF, and then it wound up being a, like, I think 20 page PDF all about the essentials of house sitting.

[00:06:59] So, um, I think at that baseline of everything, like my, the thing that I’m trying to express to people is like, You can’t, you can’t separate the artist from the explorer with like, who I am. Like it’s just, I mean, I’m sure other artists maybe don’t have this like desire to travel and like see things like that, but I really need those two to be married in, in like what I’m showing in my website and stuff.

[00:07:23] So, um, yeah, I think, did I answer your question?

[00:07:28] Rene: Yeah, maybe just why now? I think maybe it was the only other one. Oh. So why, like, why was now the right time, you know, to put this together?

[00:07:34] Jolene: Yeah. Why was that? I mean.

[00:07:39] Rene: I feel like I know the answer to this already. You had said about being location independent, that’s being, you know, one of your goals.

[00:07:45] Jolene: Yeah. I mean that is my biggest goal for this year is to become more location independent. Uh, so that I can, uh, thanks for that prompt too, because I’m like, I wanna blame inspiration. Um, [00:08:00] but.

[00:08:00] Rene: Both, it could be both.

[00:08:01] Jolene: Yeah, it’s kind of both and I’m the type of person that I sit on things for a while and sometimes so long that I just, I just sometimes get, like, I don’t even know if it’s fear or if it’s just like, I just wanna put my best work out there.

[00:08:20] Mm-hmm. You know? And your best work is always gonna be what it is at the time that you create it. Cuz you are always at your best self. Right? Yeah. So when you will. Yeah. So that’s why you gotta do it like right away. Mm-hmm. Just do the thing.

[00:08:33] Rene: Yeah. That’s perfect.

[00:08:34] Jolene: Because if you don’t then you’re just like sitting on this work for years.

[00:08:39] Like, I have and, and, and I’ve sat on this and I’ve been like, I really wanna do this and I wanna create these virtual adventures because the, the movement towards location independent for me looks like courses and adventures and like products that are passively doing what they need to do, as passive as possible.

[00:09:00] But, um, but yeah, so it’s kind of coupled for a couple different reasons. And, and I think at the end of the day, the thing that was just like, just do the thing was this absolute gnawing inside of me that I had all this knowledge about house sitting, and I wasn’t, I just wasn’t sharing it. Mm-hmm. I just wasn’t, or I was just, you know, like dropping it in there.

[00:09:26] But I will say, like, something that I realized while doing this is that having, working, like working with you with, it was like, I kept going, what am I trying to say here? Because I’ve told the story so many times that like, I’ve forgotten, like some of the important bits that mm-hmm. Like, so some of it wasn’t making sense to you, and you are like, well, what is, and I’m like, it was so clear to me like, well, that’s that, you know?

[00:09:55] And I had other people too that I was like, kind of like, Hey, check this out. Like tell me what you think of this. And they’re [00:10:00] like, but I don’t understand. And I’m like, but what don’t you understand? And I’m like, oh wait, I’m only telling a part of the story because I’m so used to telling this story. So. Mm-hmm. It was interesting.

[00:10:12] Rene: You’re in it. Yeah. You’ve lived it and it makes so much, so much sense to you. And not that it doesn’t make sense to us, but like we are coming at it from a, you know, a way different perspective. Like you are so far ahead. You know, we’re all, we’re all involved in our craft and involved in, you know, whatever it is that we know so much about that we forget that people are back here and you really need to make it really clear, very easily understandable for people so that they get it right away.

[00:10:37] Because if people don’t get it right away, you know, they’re just gonna, they’re just gonna bail and they’re like, I don’t understand this, and they’re just gonna leave. So, And I think that happens to all of us, we’re all in that like, yeah, we’re so advanced, you know, in whatever it is that we do that we forget what it was like to be a beginner.

[00:10:54] And so, but that’s, that’s great feedback that, you know, that you showed your product to other people so that you could get that feedback instead of Yeah. You know, kind of doing it blindly and putting it out there and then hearing that, like, ugh. So you had a chance to iterate. So I think that’s good.

[00:11:09] Jolene: Yeah. And I was also like very firm about like, you know, I have a couple, couple people that I talked to that were like, they wanted to like, give me their 2 cents, which was great. Mm-hmm. But there was like, there was no time to change it. Mm-hmm. So I was like, thank you, but I can’t do anything about that right now, so I need to, like, I just had to keep moving it forward.

[00:11:29] Otherwise I would’ve just kept putting it off because, you know, it wasn’t. Yes. Ready.

[00:11:34] Rene: Yeah. Yeah, that’s a great point. Yes. That totally. You know, I like the idea of getting feedback, but yes, you don’t have to take all of it. You don’t have to take every single thing that every person says, and sometimes they’re contradictory, right?

[00:11:44] Like one person is like, well, I think you should do this. And the other person’s like, I think you should do that. And you’re like, well, those are actually two different things. Yeah. Like, those are opposite things. I can’t do both of those. So I think that like getting that feedback is great. And then just seeing like what resonates, like, you know, when you, you kind of just sit and think about it, like, oh yeah, you [00:12:00] know, that really makes sense, you know, or I’m ready to do that, or I’m able to do that.

[00:12:04] I was talking with my coach the other day, uh, you know about this solo episode that I’m working on, and she’s like, you know, see if you can connect the story at the beginning to the end. And I just, I’m just not there yet. Like, I just, I’m just not there. Like, I get the idea and I will try to get there, but I’m not there.

[00:12:20] So like, I’m just like you said, like this is the best I’m doing because this is the best that I am now. And hopefully I will get there later. Uh, but that’s for later.

[00:12:30] That’s yeah, not for now.

[00:12:31] Jolene: And that’s so interesting because I feel like, so I have a theory about, like, I have a theory about everything, but my theory about like, you know, like the painter’s house is never painted.

[00:12:45] Mm-hmm. The car mechanic’s car is never fixed. Mm-hmm. You know, the hairdresser’s hair is never done. Like we do for others like what we can’t do for ourselves. And I really felt like through this whole thing that you were the one that was like, getting me to the end of the story, like, like linking the two together.

[00:13:01] And I felt like that was like part of your role in this, that you did very successfully. So like the fact to hear, to hear that you’re like, kind of moving through it, like how do you connect it, you know, and that you’re, you know, dealing with that is like, it’s interesting to me because, uh, I was struggling with that and you were like, okay, we’re gonna, and I was like.

[00:13:19] Rene: Because it’s easier to do for other people.

[00:13:21] Jolene: Yeah. Yeah. It’s easy for me. Do for you, you Rene thinks I’m, Rene thinks I’m not like putting anything together over here, does she? No. But you kind of feel like that sometimes. You know?

[00:13:33] Rene: Yeah, no, I, I totally agree. And I think it’s, so maybe we should just let the audience know that, um, I helped you with this product in that I kind of put, helped you put a timeline together and did check-ins and answered questions and, and kind of supported you, um, in this product creation.

[00:13:50] So you weren’t just kind of like out there on your own. You did all the work. I just kind of right, answered questions for you and kind of guided you along and checked in and, [00:14:00] you know, I’m not sure how you felt, you, you can talk about this if you like, but, um, I, I know that whenever I know somebody is, is going to be counting me or holding me accountable, like I know when I’m gonna get an email that’s like, Hey, how are you doing on this thing?

[00:14:15] I don’t want to let that person down. And I will, even if I haven’t done it, like I’m gonna get it together to, to show up, to be like, yes, I did the thing I said I was going to do. So I don’t know if that’s how you felt. That’s how I feel when I work with people who are holding me accountable. So if you wanna talk about that we can.

[00:14:32] Jolene: Yeah. No, I mean, I definitely feel a sense of that for sure. I also think I have this other part of me that is like artistic temperament. Oh, wait, you know? And I, you know, it’s just like, it’s still like, I, like things have to gestate for me. They have to, or they’re just like a pounce, you know? It’s just like, so I have like that dynamic going on too.

[00:14:53] One of the other things I do is coaching, right? Like, like house sitting, coaching, painting. Like, people are like, how do you put all that together? I’m like, I don’t know. It just happens. Like whatever, you know? It’s just me. But, um, yeah, it’s just me. Like that’s a thing.

[00:15:07] And that’s like what I’m really trying to say with my website. Mm-hmm. Like, it’s just me. Like I don’t funnel me into your like little boxes of things. However, most people need little boxes of things, and I get that. And doing this made me realize like back to like, like the coaching bit like. When, when I’m working with people, like I can clearly see what needs to happen next for them.

[00:15:32] Mm-hmm. But like one thing I discovered about myself during this was that I, and I think I sent you an email about it too, because it hit me like a ton of bricks and you’re like, would it be helpful if I, you know, put together this this, you know, sheet? And I was like, oh my God, yes. Like one I love checking boxes and like saying I did a thing.

[00:15:53] Yes. You know? Um, and two, I realized that I, I work gig to gig. [00:16:00] Like I do things project by project. I’ve been in, in the film industry for 23 years. So it’s been, I’ve done over, I think, like 50 movies at this point. And each one is like a little project. Little project. Mm-hmm. Little put and that’s it.

[00:16:15] And so I work like in chunks, and I need those boundaries. Like I need, I need that timeline because otherwise it drives me mental. Like I, I’ve tried to do jobs where like, like I’m pretty good at accounting, believe it or not. And like I tried to do this accounting job and every day, at the end of the day, we had to reconcile this budget and there’d be things outstanding and it would drive me nuts.

[00:16:42] Rene: It’s just never gonna be done. Yes.

[00:16:45] Jolene: That’s the feeling. And I think that’s like what this doing, this product like really, really showed me some things about myself like that and that like, it’s never gonna be done. Like sometimes you just gotta call it. You know, and I feel like that’s what I did with, with the Globe Squatters and the house sitting guide and stuff.

[00:17:04] And, and I say that all as like the same thing, but also like it helped me realize like, this is my method of working. And you were great support in that because you, your ability to, and, and I felt like this since I started working with you. Like your ability to see like what is the next step and how that person, like what their mechanics are like.

[00:17:26] I feel like you’re really good at the mechanics of things and I’ve always felt like that working with you, that where when I would kind of like shoot off in like a direction that you’d be like, you’re simple, nice but succinct. So succinct prompts were like, ah, okay. And like, let’s see, like herding chickens.

[00:17:47] Rene: Come on back this way. Yeah. Yeah. You’re like, but what about this thing over there? Yeah. Yeah. It’s so shiny. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody does that.

[00:17:56] Jolene: Yeah. I actually, I call that the something shiny personality. [00:18:00] It just like creeps out on you.

[00:18:01] It’s just, you know, this tendency to like, yeah. But, um, I really felt like you, I really feel and felt like you were really good at doing that, especially with this product because, you know, even when I came, when I came down to like, oh, I don’t know if I’m gonna be able to get this done, cuz now I’ve got this gig.

[00:18:15] And it was like slam right in the middle of us trying to, you know, push this thing through. Mm-hmm. And, um, and you were like, well, do we need to, do we need to change the, the launch date or like, what’s gonna make you feel like, you know, what feels better to you? And that really gave me. Like, I always felt like I was in charge of it, but I always felt like you were, you know, like it gave like I was empowered and, and had agency in, in the whole thing.

[00:18:44] And you were also, um, just like hearing me, like I felt like you heard me and you could sense that I was like, oh no, this is feeling pressurized. Cuz that’s the best way for me to shut down.

[00:19:00] Rene: Yes. And I think that no, nobody really likes that. Like, you know, expecting something from someone when they’re, when they’re just not able to deliver, I think is just, you know, it’s setting everybody up for failure.

[00:19:11] So, you know, just kind of like, looking through the options. Just options, right? Like, here, you could do this, or you could do this, or you could do this. Or you tell me like, you know, what your options are. So, and really like what feels the best. Because I think whenever we, we think about it like that and determine what would feel the best for us moving forward, we can change that because there’s no like one set path or plan. Like we, we made it up to begin with. Like we made a plan, right? No. Like it was a Google Sheet. Right. And we had check boxes and percentages. Yeah. And there were colors and red.

[00:19:43] Jolene: The percentages were awesome.

[00:19:45] Rene: Yeah. So, yeah. We talked initially and thought about, you know, what there was to do.

[00:19:51] Here are all the things that we needed to do and then, you know, what timeframe do we think we can get those done in? And when did you wanna launch by? But then like, as you’re executing the [00:20:00] plan, you know, the plan may need to change and it did just a little bit. But I think it feels good.

[00:20:05] Yeah. To be able to make those changes and say, okay, this is, I still want to get here. You know, sometimes you abandon the plan, you’re like, I actually don’t wanna go there anymore. And that’s fine.

[00:20:13] Jolene: Right.

[00:20:13] Rene: But if you still want to get there, like, okay, well what do we need to do now that, you know, there’s construction on this road or now that, right, right.

[00:20:20] You know, like, I ran out of gas or, you know, whatever your, you know, travel metaphors are. So I think it’s good.

[00:20:26] Jolene: Yeah. I feel like that’s definitely like as soon as you had had come back at me. Cause I was like, oh, I might be a little slow. Cuz I mean, I think internally I was like, oh shit, I’m really gonna do this thing.

[00:20:39] But then like, also I was like, ah, what if I can’t give this to her at the time that was said and that’s gonna bother me. But I love a challenge.

[00:20:49] Rene: Some people do. Yeah. Some people are really.

[00:20:50] Jolene: I do. Yeah. Yeah. And, and the bad part of that is sometimes I’ll create a challenge in order to like feel that like, oh, be bad.

[00:20:58] Yeah. Yeah. You know, it could be, it can go either way at times. Yeah. But as soon as you were like, I’m like, no, I’m gonna launch this on time. And I did. And I did. And I feel like really looking back on it, that the only thing, the only thing that I wish that I’d spent more time with is, um, actually flushing out my, my social media.

[00:21:23] Mm-hmm. Posts and, and like that plan of attack, because I was never, in lack of like the actual content. I’m never, I’m never lacking content. What I lack is, um, putting it together in the correct timeline. So I wanna say that part of the reason that that happened was my own fault for like, I did take this job and, and I’ve been on it since, and I couldn’t focus my attention the way that I had been.

[00:21:56] Mm-hmm. So there were days where I was just like, like really tired and I [00:22:00] was like grasping to like put something out there to like keep the, keep it consistent.

[00:22:05] Rene: Like the momentum, yeah. And the consistency. Yeah.

[00:22:07] Jolene: Yeah. And so it kind of came out like a little haphazardly. I feel like I could have been more successful at doing that, which maybe would’ve.

[00:22:19] I don’t think maybe, I think it would’ve led to the product being more successful as a sell. Mm-hmm. In, in like, in the whole scope of it. But the other thing that I found really, really difficult, uh, and that I had an issue with was the, um, marketing. Like, I am so bad at selling myself. Like, I just, I mean, and you kept saying like, and this was so helpful, like, write it like you’re writing to a friend.

[00:22:46] And I’m like, oh, okay. That’s easy. You know, like, I can do that. Like, I’m a writer. I’m, I can write this. Mm-hmm. But then it would just be like, I just get so, uh, I’ve never taken a marketing class. I’ve never like, and I just don’t like, want people to think like, oh, hey, look at me. But I’m like, but I am saying, oh, hey, look at me like. So.

[00:23:08] Rene: But for the people who, who are interested, right? I don’t think that we say like, oh, hey, look at me, uh, to everybody, right? Like, right. The people who resonate with us, and the people who are like, oh, I’m interested in this. I’m interested in this topic. Like, those are the people we’re trying to get their attention, right?

[00:23:26] Of like, hey, we have something in common. You know, you wanna house sit, or, you know, you wanna launch a product. Like, these are the people we’re trying to kind of pull into our orbit, the rest of the people. Yeah. Whatever. We don’t. Right. You know, they’re just not, not our people. So we’re just looking for our people.

[00:23:40] So I think that’s kind of how I look at it. Now’s a great time to maybe sit down and, and put some thoughts together about how you would do social media. Whether it’s like I should be posting every day, or I should post this kind of thing.

[00:23:55] Or like, look back at the things that you did post, you know, either [00:24:00] timing or content or whatever, and say like, okay, these ones really worked and these ones didn’t work as well, or these felt really good for me to put out there and these ones didn’t. You know? And like, what was it? You just try to like identify like what worked so that you have it for next time.

[00:24:17] Because I think we forget.

[00:24:18] Jolene: That’s a good idea.

[00:24:18] Rene: We don’t write it down. If we don’t look back at it and write it down, then we’re like, oh, I can’t remember. You know? And then we just make something up the next time. So.

[00:24:26] Jolene: Yeah, that’s a really great suggestion.

[00:24:29] Rene: I want to get people to, uh, launch, but then I also really like the point is to prepare you to be able to do this again.

[00:24:37] So to be able to sit down and put a timeline together to, to know, like, these are the types of things that I need to know. Like, where am I gonna sell? How do I price a thing? How do I get feedback? What emails do I have to send? What social posts do I have to, to share? All of these things.

[00:24:53] And then to execute it and then to look back and say, okay, what, what was I really glad that I did? What am I really happy about? What went really well, what didn’t? And so then you can take that into the next time and say, okay, well I’m not going to do X and Y and Z again, but I am going to do A, B, and C again.

[00:25:13] So I think that’s important because your first product is just like the first step. It’s like one thing. You know, it’s, it’s your very first thing and it’s great in its own right. But, you know, really the goal is to keep going. Like, try another one. Yeah. So do you wanna talk about that?

[00:25:28] Do you wanna dive in there or should we, anything else we wanna say about the first one?

[00:25:31] Jolene: Yeah, no. Um, the only thing that I wanna say about the first one is that I, because of what I was trying to do, which was a twofold thing, like I could have just put a guide out there. I could have just done that and I really wanted to couple this video into it and I didn’t, but I didn’t want it to be for public consumption because of exactly what you were saying, like having.

[00:25:57] Like the resonance with the right [00:26:00] people. And I just wanna say that I threw a ton of questions at you, and I feel like I put up a lot of like, like caution you like, like my, uh, highway patrolmen were like, like every mile going, Hey, you better slow down. You know, because I just came up with one more question, um, because I was just trying to protect the integrity of what I had created.

[00:26:26] And I think that that’s really, really important for me. And something that like, moving forward into my next ones, like it’s really hard as an artist, like, you know, you like, it’s hard and it’s great. Like you have this freedom where like you can pretty much do whatever you want and people will be like, oh, she’s an artist.

[00:26:43] So like, whatever, like, you know. And I’m pretty sure at this point my entire audience on Instagram and Facebook is like, What the hell is this woman doing? Like she said she was a painter and she’s like, she’s like taking care of chickens now. Oh the chickens. Yeah, yeah. You know, but I’m like, I don’t care.

[00:27:01] Like, I hope I throw you a curve ball and I hope I throw you 10 more, because that’s what we’re supposed to do as artists. Yes. But then the other aspect of it is like, you know, there’s no, like, there isn’t any one defined way through it. Mm-hmm. It’s just like what you are, what you are deciding to do. And with all the content that’s out there.

[00:27:21] Like, I love making videos, you know, I wouldn’t be in film if I didn’t, you know, but, um, and it’s like there’s so much content out there, and I guess the easy thing would’ve been for me to just throw it out there and have like, anybody be able to watch it and the, but somehow for me, it like loses its value.

[00:27:42] I don’t create lightly with anything. Right. It’s very intentional. I’m sure that the bulk of, of videos and things that are out there are not like artistically intentional.

[00:27:57] And so having that differentiation [00:28:00] between like, what I’m trying to do versus what somebody on like TikTok is trying to do is it’s completely different. Like I was born an artist, like this is just like something that I am, it’s not like, I’m not, like I don’t have to read about it to be it, like it, it’s just happening, you know?

[00:28:18] So that’s the only thing that I wanted to say about that, but about what I already did. But then like moving forward, taking all that information into moving forward and like, you know, really creating more like virtual adventures mm-hmm. And sticking to this location independent lifestyle as much as possible with some courses and coaching and, you know, um, I’m gonna be doing like different types of, um, like coaching that’s like centered, like a hyperfocus on, like filmmaking for people that are like doing, you know, videos and things like that.

[00:28:52] And then also hyperfocus on like, I, I just got certified to be a yoga instructor.

[00:28:57] Rene: Oh, cool.

[00:28:57] Jolene: I will never stop learning and growing. Mm-hmm. Like, it’s just, it, it’s just, I gotta keep my website that I have to have it keep up with me in some way and, you know. Yeah. So that’s, that’s the intention is like, I think it’d be fun to do, like, I have so much fun with the videos and just like, creating those and, and also like, I like teachable experiences.

[00:29:18] Mm-hmm. You know, like, I want some, I want people to have a takeaway with what it is that I’m making. Not just like, oh wow, look, that was a video. Click, swipe, whatever.

[00:29:27] Rene: Right. Right. And I think like, as a collection, like as you build those things, you know, so you have like X people in your audience right now.

[00:29:34] But more people are coming every day. And as you build the next thing, you might get more people from that, you know? And, and so then, then you have more people in your audience, in your orbit, and now you have a collection of these virtual adventures. So the first product really is just like the first drop in the bucket to Yeah.

[00:29:56] All of the things, you know, the large collection. It’s maybe like [00:30:00] your first painting compared to like, now all of the paintings that you have done up to this point. Like it’s, it’s, it’s just the beginning. It’s just the beginning.

[00:30:09] Jolene: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I’m looking at it like that and like, you know, the one thing that I can say is that when you put something out there, you just don’t know how people are gonna respond to it. We run risks as creators all the time. And I’m not just specifically saying like artists, I mean just like creators like that we are. And so you run those risks all the time.

[00:30:30] And I think being unattached to the outcome is like this project that I did this launch, like I was doing it cause it was something that was like burning in me to do. Wasn’t like, I hadn’t really been thinking about it. I hadn’t like, you know, I had wanted to do it, but it was just like the outcome wasn’t what I was seeking.

[00:30:54] It was the actual like feeling of having accomplished it. Mm-hmm. Which was like huge for me. You know, so that was really, I think not being attached to outcomes and, and I know this information, like I live this on the daily. Mm-hmm. I’ll be on a job and they’re like, I don’t like how you painted that. I’m like, okay, how do you want it?

[00:31:11] Well, we want more of this. Okay. And you do it that way. It’s like, big deal. You know what I mean? Yeah. So just applying that to like what you’re trying to put out there and like not giving up. Like I could easily be like, well that didn’t work as well as I wanted. So I guess I’m not supposed to do that, but, mm.

[00:31:27] I’m like, that was really fun what I just did, and I learned like some cool stuff. And so I think I’m ready to like do another one and do it different and try to, you know, on that quest for that mm-hmm. Perfection. But you gotta take risks. You gotta put it out there.

[00:31:43] Rene: And right, right. And I think it’s all like experimentation.

[00:31:46] I would call your product, a smaller product, right. Because it was one PDF, one video, not that it, that means it took you five minutes, but it wasn’t like a signature course. And you know, the reason I like that is because it’s challenging enough to get it [00:32:00] out there.

[00:32:00] I mean, it took some time to get it all together to, you know, go through all the questions on the technology side. Just kind of putting all the things, prepping the audience and doing all that stuff, but now you know you can do it. Like now you have done it. And I think that like, anytime we do something for the first time, we just, we feel more comfortable doing it again.

[00:32:22] It’s like your first painting, if, if you would’ve said like, well, I just, mm. And then like, that must mean I’m not supposed to do it again. Like, you know, can you imagine like how different your life would’ve been? So.

[00:32:33] Jolene: Oh my God. Like, I can’t, Rene, I can’t, yeah.

[00:32:35] Rene: So I just think that it’s so great, you know, to have done it. And it’s such a big step, um, for people because we’re not used to doing it in this way. Like you are used to creating, you know, some of my audience I think maybe is more service providers, so maybe they’re not used to, they’re maybe used to helping their, their audience create and, you know, maybe do things for them as a service provider.

[00:32:55] But doing something for yourself is different. And so maybe, again, not exactly the same for you, but I think a, a digital product is, you know, way different from, you do a lot of like physical stuff. Like you, you have have a painting and then there is a painting that exists at the end. So a digital product I think is just a way different thing.

[00:33:14] And you know, like when you sell that painting, then the painting is gone and it is, yeah. And all that lives with somebody else. Yeah. But this, you know, a lot of potential here.

[00:33:25] Jolene: I will say that like, you know, full disclosure, like my, like I work behind the scenes. Like I don’t go up in front of the camera.

[00:33:41] Rene: Ah.

[00:33:41] Jolene: You know what I mean?

[00:33:42] Rene: Okay, yeah, that’s a great point.

[00:33:44] Jolene: So, like, for me, and I’m the one in this video, like mm-hmm. My partner was filming me. Mm-hmm. And I was the, the subject, you know, so it [00:34:00] was really terrifying for me. Like this was about me getting over myself too. Mm-hmm. Like putting myself out there in front of everybody, because that is not. My first step was my website.

[00:34:14] And really claiming that, like mm-hmm. Here I am, you know, because I’m like a closet creator. Like I’m just behind the scenes and I’m like, mm-hmm. I’m a great, you know, and the only time you ever see me on camera is when I’m called in, when things are going wrong and they stop filming, you know? And then everybody’s just watching me and it’s really, really nerve wracking, but.

[00:34:37] Rene: Wow.

[00:34:37] Jolene: Oh, like, you wanna talk about hyperventilation? It’s like, oh my God. Oh my God. But it’s like my job, so, yeah. You know, but it was really scary to put myself out there and, and I’m still like, am I gonna regret this?

[00:34:49] I can’t speak for everybody, but I know for myself, like it’s, it’s hard to put myself out there like that. Mm-hmm. It, it really is. And that was a, that was a, honestly, that was the biggest thing that I’ve ever done for like, my work.

[00:35:03] Rene: Yeah. I think this is, I think you’re totally right that it is a, it is a, it is a putting yourself out there, like in a way different way.

[00:35:10] And I think that it is so, you know, much more maybe satisfying at the end when you do it. Like you’re, maybe you’re more proud of yourself. Like, hey, I, I, I did this. And I kind of feel that way, like about even about this podcast. Like there’s, you know, I am, I’m okay with like emails and like one-on-one client interactions.

[00:35:29] But you know, when it comes to putting it out like for the internet, like open in the world, it’s a way different thing.

[00:35:37] It’s so different. Yeah. And it’s very challenging, you know, and I think having,

[00:35:41] Jolene: Vulnerable.

[00:35:42] Rene: That support Yes. Way, very vulnerable. So like, you know, and I think you have sometimes expectations. Expectations, kind of in the back of your mind, you maybe don’t even know that you have them, like, you know, maybe.

[00:35:53] So for example, you have a, a close friend maybe who doesn’t respond in the way that you think. You’re like, I did this huge thing, [00:36:00] and they like, don’t acknowledge it.

[00:36:02] Jolene: True story for me.

[00:36:03] Rene: I know, me too.

[00:36:04] Jolene: That did happen.

[00:36:06] Rene: But then you get feedback in unexpected places and you get some really positive, you know, I’ll like get an email or something like, oh, that really resonated with me. And wow. It just, it kind of really just stops you and, and makes you think.

[00:36:18] But I think that thinking about it from your own perspective, just shutting out all that, like shutting out all that noise. I’m proud of myself to have put this podcast out. I am proud of you to have launched that product, and I hope you are proud of you too, to have launched that product.

[00:36:32] I hope that it, it does something for you that isn’t just like, I put a PDF out there, you know, like, I hope it’s more than that, you know?

[00:36:41] Jolene: Definitely.

[00:36:42] Rene: For you.

[00:36:42] Jolene: 100%. 100%. I am so proud of myself. Like that was a huge, whether or not anybody, I mean now some people won’t know, but mm-hmm. Whether or not anybody realizes, you know, and maybe someday I’ll write about it on my blog, but, uh, it was a huge thing for me to do.

[00:37:01] Mm-hmm. Was a huge risk and for, for multiple layers and, you know, so, um, yeah, I’m really proud of myself and I don’t have, I don’t have any regret about doing it. And yeah, I, I am, yeah, it was good. It was good. And it really was empowering.

[00:37:20] Rene: And I think that’s the way we, we want to live all the life, right? Like all, all the times.

[00:37:24] Jolene: Yeah.

[00:37:25] Rene: All the days, every day, every year, every week, every month. Like, I think that’s the way, and, and it’s hard. I think it’s hard to do. I think it’s very challenging, you know, to, to, to wake up and show up. Be like, okay, I have a thing to say. I have a thing to share with the world. This is something I believe in.

[00:37:40] I’m gonna do it. And then, you know, sometimes it’s like, I did it. You know, my, when I, you know, people ask like, what are your favorite emojis? Mine’s like the monkey. It’s like, smiley, but has his eyes covered? Like, oh, I’m so embarrassed. Uh, kind of thing. So that one in the laughing face. But, um, you know, I just, I do, I think it’s important.

[00:37:58] Like, here, I’m getting teary. I don’t think [00:38:00] you’re supposed to cry on podcast, but see I’m here crying.

[00:38:02] Jolene: I think it’s totally allowed. It’s totally allowed. I think everybody should cry. Like whatever they want.

[00:38:07] Rene: Yes, yes. But sometimes, you know, things just really hit you. And I think that’s, yeah.

[00:38:11] Jolene: You feel that?

[00:38:12] Rene: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:14] Jolene: You feel that, and when you feel that you, like, that’s, that’s like what we’re here for. The one thing that I just wanna go back to for a second is like, I had a, I had a good friend of mine, uh, reach out to me about what I was doing, and I was like, what?

[00:38:31] You don’t think I’m brilliant? You don’t think I’m like the most awesome? Like, you’ve been here beside me during this whole like, you know, life of what’s been going on for me for the last 10 years. Mm-hmm. And like, you’ve been right there, like front and center and you’re not, like, it wasn’t that she wasn’t supportive.

[00:38:52] Mm-hmm. It was just that she, I just wanted her to be like, that’s so awesome.

[00:38:59] Rene: Yes.

[00:38:59] Jolene: She did a great job.

[00:39:01] Rene: Yes.

[00:39:01] Jolene: You know? Mm-hmm. And she didn’t, and I was just like, you know, after a few prompts of like encouraging her that I wasn’t like I needed that. Mm-hmm. Then she was like, oh, but it’s really good, you know?

[00:39:14] And I’m like, yeah, but now I just don’t believe you, so that’s okay too.

[00:39:16] Rene: Yes. Right. But, um, say that upfront.

[00:39:19] Jolene: Yeah. But it made me take a look at myself and be like, like it made me ask myself like, what am I doing this for? Like.

[00:39:25] Rene: Yes. Yes.

[00:39:27] Jolene: Like, what am I doing this for? What is, and you know, not to discount like in the marketing, in the audience and like all those things.

[00:39:35] Because like I feel, I feel like for me, like I can’t get myself in that mindset of that because it deters me from like, I’m so easily swayed into like, oh, you know, my whole like career is built around being a supportive artist to the, the person in charge of me. Mm-hmm. That’s my career. Like my [00:40:00] own career is like me being an artist, an independent artist.

[00:40:02] Right. Or I’m just doing my own thing, which is great. But then over here in this world, I am the main support for the visual execution. So like, I am geared to respond when somebody is coming at me with information. Mm-hmm. About what I’m creating. And so it’s a really delicate balance of like, if I think too much about the audience and what they need and what they want, then where does Jolene go?

[00:40:32] Rene: Yeah, that’s true. Yes. That’s a very good point.

[00:40:34] Jolene: So I have to like pull focus differently each arena and mm-hmm. You know, so, and I’m also not that good at it.

[00:40:46] Rene: No, I don’t, I think it takes practice, but I think that, you know, really like in those roles, you know, as the, the person who supports, like it’s your name’s on it, but your name’s not at the top, but in this, your name’s at the top and there’s no other names below.

[00:41:00] So I think that you yeah, do have to be, you have to be happy with the product. And I think that you do wanna create something that, that people find valuable. I think that is the point because if the product doesn’t sell, like, you know, I, I, I do think there is something there, but yes, if you’re not happy with it, um, if it doesn’t really come from a place that you know is, is you, I don’t think that it’s, I, I, you know, I don’t think it’s gonna make you happy in that same way, so.

[00:41:30] Jolene: Right.

[00:41:30] Rene: I dunno.

[00:41:31] Jolene: Right. I mean, I think at that point, Like, I had to ask myself during this, and I, and I did, and I’ve asked myself this a couple times, like since I launched my website with you. I think it was in, I think we did it at like, like the worst possible time. It was like, okay.

[00:41:47] Rene: Was it 2020?

[00:41:48] Jolene: Covid? Yeah, those of Covid.

[00:41:51] But I actually did really good. Like, um, so, uh, I feel like I’ve asked myself, and I asked myself with this too, like, if [00:42:00] you’re not willing to like look at, you know, it’s like Jolene, if you’re not willing to look at who the audience might be, what they want and creating a valuable product, then what? You don’t have a product.

[00:42:11] You have a.

[00:42:11] Rene: It’s not a product, it’s just.

[00:42:14] Jolene: It’s a hobby.

[00:42:15] Rene: Right. A thing you’ve created, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[00:42:17] Jolene: Yeah. Which is fine. I can ha like if I want to go in that direction and just do hobbies mm-hmm. But I actually want it as a viable, you know, so I need to get better at some things and I need to pay more attention to things.

[00:42:30] And you know, just that self like keeping it. Again, pulling focused and saying like, I’m the one in charge of this and this is my name going out there, and the audience is important because I can tell you all those movies I work on, they don’t sit there and go, well, we don’t really care who the audience is.

[00:42:50] Rene: I think as a, as a creator, we, I, I, I don’t wanna put something out into the world that I don’t like, but is something that maybe the audience would like. Like I, I want, I want it both ways, right? I want it both.

[00:43:02] I want it to be something that I like and I’m happy about creating and feel pride in, and I want the audience to like it and buy it. So that’s kind of how I feel about it. Like, can we have both?

[00:43:14] Jolene: Yeah, I know what’s going on in this world? Why can’t we have both?

[00:43:16] I feel like this launching this product, like I was true to myself.

[00:43:20] Mm-hmm. I had your support, I felt in total control of it. You are a very good guide.

[00:43:24] Rene: Thank you.

[00:43:24] Jolene: You are a very good support.

[00:43:26] Rene: Thank you.

[00:43:27] Jolene: In me executing the vision that I had for this product. Yeah. And I’m looking forward to making more.

[00:43:34] Rene: Yay. I learned a lot too, and I, you know, I welcome those questions because those are all great opportunities for me to understand like what people have questions about. Some of the questions I knew the answers to, so I could say like, you know, X or Y or Z, but some of them I didn’t, so I had to go learn that, you know, which is great for me because then next time I can show up for the next person with answers to those questions, and not that I think that that will ever stop, like, I, I just don’t think [00:44:00] that’ll ever stop.

[00:44:00] I think that people always have questions, but it just, it goes to show like what people’s concerns are. Like I was working with another woman and, and her concern was having a technology solution that, uh, she paid for monthly so that when her sales, you know, exceeded a certain amount, she wouldn’t have to pay more.

[00:44:21] Some of these platforms you have to pay per sale, you know, a percentage per sale. And that’s interesting to me, like really digging into the technology part. Like, here’s how to segment your emails so that you can send to people who didn’t buy, and here’s how to send emails to people who did buy.

[00:44:34] Jolene: That’s why we need people like you.

[00:44:36] Rene: I love that part.

[00:44:38] That’s my favorite. Sometimes that can get in the way of creating the product because you know your audience, you know what you wanna put out there. But then to also have to worry about the technology and have to worry about the, oh, I need a timeline, I need, I need help.

[00:44:53] You know, kind of framing this because it, it could just be open-ended, you know, like there was nobody really saying you had to do it by a certain time. That’s the hard part with these things that we do for ourselves on our own. Um, and all that imposter syndrome that gets in the way and all that, we’re in the weeds.

[00:45:09] You know, like we, we just get in this, this place that we’re like, oh my God, I just need, I just need help. I just need some support to guide me through this. And I found my own support in, in different places in my life and, you know, at different times and different kinds of support and like, it really just helps.

[00:45:25] Like, you really just can’t do it all on your own all the time. It’s hard. It’s cuz life is hard.

[00:45:29] Jolene: Yeah. And it’s really funny to me, like, cuz I think about this. Every day. Literally every day. Especially on my days off, where I like wake up and I’m like, oh, I gotta do this, I gotta do that. And I’m like, we’re just making this up.

[00:45:44] Like a bunch of people got together and were like, work days, 8-4:30, that’s what we do. It’s like, oh, okay. And then it’s like, but really?

[00:45:52] Rene: And we all just buy into it. Yes.

[00:45:54] Jolene: I know. It’s so funny. So whenever I get too stressed out about something and I’m like, oh my God, this isn’t [00:46:00] gonna get done on time, I’m like, who’s timeline?

[00:46:02] Rene: Yeah.

[00:46:03] Jolene: Like who’s running this show? Like right. I am. Yes. So, you know, be honest, be clear with yourself and you know, like, I know, I know that I have a hangup. I just want to like, I wanna make the best thing, I want the best representation mm-hmm. Of what I can create out there. And I also know full well having been in this industry for over 20 years, that that doesn’t always happen. Mm-hmm. And sometimes it is that saying like, done is better than good.

[00:46:36] Rene: Right. Right. Because it could just be undone. So many people I talk with, yeah, right, have like, they have a product in their heart, they have it half done, they have it in 15 Google Docs and you know, on scraps of paper and whatever.

[00:46:46] But it’s not, it’s not out there. So while it’s fantastic, like if it’s not out there, what is it doing? Like, it’s, it’s not, it doesn’t exist. Right. It’s not anything. It’s taking up your mental space. So, you know, I think like creating and getting it out there, I think it just feels, it’s like a relief too, like launching this podcast, like, you know, by the time this airs, it will have been out a while, but like, ooh, like what a relief to just get it.

[00:47:10] Jolene: Congratulations!

[00:47:11] Rene: Here it is. Thanks.

[00:47:13] Yeah. Here it is world. And setting those expectations aside for like number of listeners or downloads or, honestly, I don’t even actually know how to find that information out yet, but like, like I did a thing. Yeah. And now I can, you know, figure out like what’s next?

[00:47:29] Like what, what is next for me? And, you know, what is next for, you know, the things that I want to do and kind of get out there in the world. So.

[00:47:37] Jolene: One of the biggest things that this spawned for me is that since I decided that I did this, um, I’m now working on, and I know it’s just been like a week, but it’s happening.

[00:47:50] I’ve already made the phone calls. Um, I linked up with a producer friend of mine, producer director, and, um, I, I have, [00:48:00] um, asked him to help me create an experimental documentary on the Globe Squatters. So, um, we’re doing this fun little side project.

[00:48:12] Rene: That’s awesome.

[00:48:13] Jolene: That is gonna be an even like, bigger push of putting it out there, but it freed up space in my mind to be able to be like, okay.

[00:48:22] What’s next?

[00:48:22] Rene: It’s that momentum too. You’re like, well, I, I did the thing. Like, I’m ready to do the next thing now. Like, I think it just, it feels good. I think that we let things that aren’t important get in the way and kind of cloud things.

[00:48:34] And then all the things that we’re really like, you know, feel called to do and, and, you know, pushed to do those, those kind of get pushed aside. And I, you just end up, I think, not feeling really like you’re living, you know, like as, as weird as that sounds like launching a podcast, like, I feel like I’m alive now. So for other people, you know, and hopefully people, you know, will find it useful. And draw an, an orbit of people who are, who, who want these things that, that I want and who, you know, who resonate with the message that I’m putting out there.

[00:49:05] Jolene: Yeah, absolutely. Your tribe. And I think that like, the thing that I feel about working with you is that like you’re passionate about what you do, and so I feel like you will attract those passionate people to you about what they’re doing. Mm-hmm. And that is the momentum that we all need to be in to, to do this life.

[00:49:23] Right? Because like if we’re not living out these passions, regardless of what they are mm-hmm. It could be raising an ant farm, like it doesn’t matter. Yes. Mm-hmm. Whatever it is that, that, like lights your soul up, like that’s what mm-hmm. That’s what we’re here to do, you know? Yeah. So.

[00:49:37] Rene: To really make the most of it I think.

[00:49:39] Jolene: Yeah. Agreed. 100%.

[00:49:41] Rene: So what two to three things do you recommend for people who have not done this yet? So whether it’s do this or don’t do this, or both. What do you think?

[00:49:50] Jolene: Okay. Um, for one, and Rene is not paying me to say this, I would recommend you hire Rene.

[00:49:57] Rene: I’m not paying Jolene at all. Anything. Although [00:50:00] I did buy her product to test it out.

[00:50:02] Jolene: That’s true. You did. I appreciate that. You just know how to lead a person through the launching of their product.

[00:50:09] And I felt like the support and, and I feel like you have, you have a good way of making, making a concept into a tangible form when the, at least when I didn’t have like words for all the things you helped me do that. Um, and the other thing that I would recommend is not going back over it again and again and again, but I’ve already said enough about that, about, that’s part of my personality type.

[00:50:31] So, um, like, do it, check the box, move on. Mm-hmm. And mm-hmm. You know, so those are, those are the two things that I would recommend. Yeah.

[00:50:41] Rene: Yeah, I totally agree with that. Like, sometimes like I just, like, I, you know, if I’m writing something or whatever, I’m like, I’m reading it over and over and over and I’m like, oh my God.

[00:50:49] Like at, at some point you’re really just not even reading it because you’ve read it so many times that I’m not exactly sure what I’m doing with it, but I’m not ready to hit publish or something. I’m like, okay, gotta gotta move on. I, in that case, um, so I guess just as a, here’s what I do, I have one or two people who will read it over.

[00:51:08] So my partner, I’ll be like, can you read this blog post? I’m tired of looking at it. I think it’s okay, but can you let me know if something doesn’t make sense? Or sometimes he’ll point out like grammatical errors or, you know, things that I just kind of missed. So in a way that makes me feel better because I, I feel like somebody I know and trust and I know his, uh, you know, like he’s good with, with grammar and things like that.

[00:51:31] So I, I know that he’s gonna go over it. Right. And I feel comfortable that, like, I’m at a point where I’m ready to hit publish and I have that kind of extra layer of somebody that I trust who is kind of putting their stamp of approval on it, so that that’s what works for me. But, um, but yes, sometimes you just have to hit publish and I see a lot of things out there in the world that, you know, have spelling errors and, you know, videos that aren’t quite, I’m like, I wouldn’t do that.

[00:51:58] And people are putting it out there and people are [00:52:00] getting views. Yeah. So maybe it doesn’t have to be as perfect as we think or, you know, we would prefer, I know it’s hard though. It’s hard for a certain type of person to, yeah. Like, but it’s not perfect, so, Yeah. So whatever, I guess, however you can get to that comfort spot, I think is

[00:52:18] Jolene: Yeah.

[00:52:18] Rene: To be able to kind of move on to the next thing, I think is a, a good place to find.

[00:52:23] Jolene: Yeah. And I think it’s good to have a backing person who’s like, especially if it, if it can be your partner to like, or somebody close to you that would be like, that’s kind of protective of you. Like in a, in a way where they’re like, they have your best interests at heart, I guess is what I wanna say.

[00:52:41] So they wouldn’t, they’d police that they police that shit and be like, Hey, uh uh. Yes. So don’t say that.

[00:52:48] Rene: Yes, exactly. Yes. Something that mm-hmm.

[00:52:51] Right. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s so extra layer of like, okay, I can put it out, but you look at it first, I’m not gonna tell, like, I’m not gonna put it on social media until you read it over.

[00:53:00] Yeah. So that kinda thing. So, yeah. Yeah, I think that’s great.

[00:53:03] Okay. So tell people where they can find you online.

[00:53:06] Jolene: Oh, that’s the question of my life. Where can you find me?

[00:53:10] Rene: Where are you the most?

[00:53:12] Jolene: I think I frequent Instagram mostly. Mm-hmm. So just Jolene Dames on Instagram and then I’m on, I piggyback with Facebook a lot. My, um, handle is Jolene Dames Artist on there. Okay. So, and also my website. Mm-hmm. jolenedames.com. Um, those are the three places that you could find me.

[00:53:33] But if you were really, really, really, really looking for me, you should go to my website first.

[00:53:38] Rene: Well thank you so much for being on the show today. I, I was really excited to have you here and I’m glad we got to chat about everything.

[00:53:44] Jolene: Thank you, Rene. I had a good time. Good luck with your podcast.

[00:53:47] Rene: Thank you.

[00:53:48] Hey, thanks for listening. I’d love to continue the conversation in your inbox. Email SUBSCRIBE to hey at yfdp.show or sign up in the show notes to get bimonthly emails [00:54:00] about how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. Can’t wait to see you there.