Listening to her audience and asking for feedback with Sara Loretta

[00:00:00] Rene: Hey everyone. Welcome to Your First Digital Product, a show that helps maxed-out service providers create their first digital product so they can gain an additional income stream, grow their impact without increasing one-on-one work and experience more time freedom. On the show, I talk to business owners who have launched digital products and dig deep into how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. I’m your host, Rene Morozowich. Let’s go.

[00:00:28] Hey everybody. I am so excited to be here today with Sara Loretta. Sara is the 10th certified notion consultant in the US and for the past decade has made it her mission to help freelancers evolve into badass CEOs using strategic processes through her SYSTMS method. Hey, Sara.

[00:00:44] Sara: Hi, how are you?

[00:00:45] Rene: Good, how are you?

[00:00:46] Sara: I’m good. I, I’m on my fourth coffee of the day, so I’m living the dream right now.

[00:00:51] Rene: Right? You’re making it work. And this is a Friday for all of you. You guys listening, so I, I didn’t know if it was a good idea to record on a Friday or not, but we’re gonna see how it goes.

[00:01:00] Sara: Yeah, I actually, I don’t do any public work on Fridays, so for me, this is great cuz it’s just like my kind of catchall admin, creative brainstorm day. So.

[00:01:09] Rene: Yeah, I thought it’d be nice to have a, you know, just like a nice juicy conversation on a Friday. So that’s kind of why I opened up slots on Fridays. I normally didn’t have them, but I, I don’t know, I just feel like it, it,

[00:01:18] Sara: I’m enjoying it.

[00:01:19] Rene: It seems like it’s gonna be a good thing, so, yeah. Yep. So, totally. Yeah. So tell us about your first digital product. So what was it and who was it for? And. What problem did it solve? All, all the things.

[00:01:29] Sara: Totally. Yeah. So a little bit of a background. So I started freelancing in 2018, um, kind of on a whim. I couldn’t find a new job and I hated my job.

[00:01:39] Um, and so I took all of my skills and said, where could I? Kind of do this for other people. And I quickly fell into the design world. Um, for full transparency, I was a communications director and I was doing data and all of these things, so I kind of had been playing around with, you know, Canva and, you know, just expanding those skills, if you will.

[00:01:59] Hmm. [00:02:00] And so I started going to all of our partners and said, you know, what can I do for ya’ll. And within six months, I mean, it blew up. I had 40 clients in six months, um, which was insane. Coming from the nonprofit world, you know, no one, no one really has these skills. It’s not something that’s usually grant written.

[00:02:16] And so, you know, you don’t have many people that are creative on your teams. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I had started freelancing and I had ended up working with, um, like a local historical home and that they were like, can you do websites? And I’m like sure. Um, and before I knew it, I had a design agency and I was doing branding and packaging and web design.

[00:02:39] And through all of that I actually was using Trello. I used Trello in undergrad. Mm-hmm. And I, but I hated it. Like for my neurodivergent brain, Trello just wasn’t working. And so randomly I had found, um, Notion. I had like Googled productivity, you know, and tools and Notion came up and I started using Notion.

[00:03:00] And at the time I had had a YouTube channel. I was kind of starting to grow similarly, you know, on the same side as all of my other stuff. And I had filmed a video on like, here’s how I use Notion to run my business. Like whatever. Like it was just like a stupid video, right? Mm-hmm. And I had someone from Ireland email me and was like, can you build my Notion account?

[00:03:20] And I’m like, no. Like I do branding. I don’t, I don’t know what that means, right? Like I No. And I was really nice about it and she ended up emailing me eight times before I said yes. And I was petrified. I was like, listen, I’ve never done this before. But I knew from my background of always saying yes and just taking new products or projects, I should say.

[00:03:40] Mm-hmm. And really just. You know, if it feels good, like say yes to it. Right? Yeah. That’s kind of my baseline for everything that I do. Mm-hmm. is, as long as it feels good, I’m going to try it out. Mm-hmm. And so this girl, this poor girl, she also had a design agency. She still does and she’s so [00:04:00] freaking talented.

[00:04:01] Um, but I finally said yes. And I said, listen, if you’re asking for this, because at the time no creatives were really on Notion. Okay. It was really, at this time, it was a lot of, um, students and personal task management, like some companies were using it, but from our standpoint of being creative freelancers, no one was really on it yet.

[00:04:23] Mm-hmm. And so I said, okay, well if you are wanting this, chances are other people are. And that video on my YouTube channel was starting to take off. And so I’d made an agreement with her and I was like, look, if we’re gonna do this, like let me turn them into templates, I’ll charge you less for it because I know I’m gonna make money on this long term.

[00:04:40] Like I just, I had that feeling. And so what I ended up building for her was my technical first digital product, which was called Notion for Designers. It was a 40 plus template bundle that was built as an entire operating system. So it was pretty much like you click duplicate and mm-hmm, plug in your data and go on your way.

[00:05:01] There were client portals, CRM, um, mood board templates, like literally everything you could think of was in this product. And so I was in a couple of, um, like design groups. There was one design group on Slack that I was super active in, and I said, Hey, like, I built this thing, like, you know, if you want it just, I’ll give it away for like, like 10 people for free, right?

[00:05:23] Mm-hmm. And I had put. At the time, like Notion templates. I mean, I still think that it’s a problem, but people don’t really charge a lot for Notion templates. Mm-hmm. And so I was like, I don’t really know what to charge for a digital product cause I’ve never had one. And so I slapped a $60 price tag on it.

[00:05:41] And before I knew it, I had over 500 downloads on it. Ooh. Which I never upped the price. So really thinking about like $67. And then I had people who had agencies come to me and say, Hey, like this is great, but we need it for our teams. So then I launched my second digital product Notion for Agencies, and that’s when I started [00:06:00] like changing the price on it and really thinking about, you know, how can I better serve these people?

[00:06:04] Mm-hmm. Um, but you know, so the audience was really interesting because I had one product that I kind of like built on a whim and was selling on a whim and it was doing really well.

[00:06:16] Um, but I had other people looking at it and saying, Hey, this isn’t for us, but we want you to do this other thing. And so really quickly, Notion for Designers shifted into, there was designers and then there was agencies, and it was very clear like if you’re a freelancer, solopreneur, or an agency, like that’s the one you buy.

[00:06:34] Um, and it got so popular we ended up creating a community for it that, um, we reached I think 1100 people before I shut it down. Um, and also Notion came to me, so you kind of touched on it in my bio, um, but Notion had heard about it. And they invited me to go through their certified Notion consultant program, um, which was not on my radar, you know?

[00:06:58] Mm-hmm, I was like, I make packaging and design websites, and I ended up going through it earlier in 2022. So I think I went through it in January and I became the 10th certified Notion consultant in the US. The 40th in the world just happened to be that number, which is like kind of cool, I think.

[00:07:15] Rene: Yeah, for sure.

[00:07:15] Sara: Um, I didn’t like seek it out, but what I realized, you know, in this first product, and kind of my experience within the Notion world is that designers are usually forgotten when it comes to productivity tools. Yes. Mm-hmm, um, you know, we are pretty much kind of on our own, building out what we do, but everybody pretty much has the same process, right?

[00:07:38] Mm-hmm, we have onboarding, client management, offboarding, retainer/retention, right? Mm-hmm. And so it was really easy for me to create a product that built kind of this bracket or bubble around us that you could still customize based on how you do onboarding. Mm-hmm or how you do client management, but [00:08:00] it was focused on you and being a client-based business, which so many softwares get wrong, um, or they’re too broad.

[00:08:08] And so now you know, people that are in my, in my community and my audience are coming from Dubsado because Dubsado lacking X, Y, Z. Mm-hmm, you know, they got HoneyBook for a dollar because the HoneyBook is on sale. Yes. But they can’t do X, Y, Z. Mm-hmm and so it’s really been fun to really mold this product and follow kind of the trajectory of where our audience is going.

[00:08:32] And really continue to solve those problems. Right. So I just built, um, well actually, let me, let me share about the transition of Notion for Designers too. Yeah. Um, because I think, you know, one thing that we learned after we had about 500 downloads, we, on Notion for Designers, we had like 300 on Notion for Agencies.

[00:08:50] Um, is that, I was building it as a complete operating system because so many people were saying, Hey, like Notion’s, open source, it’s really overwhelming, it’s really confusing. We just wanna go in there like we do Dubsado, and go on our way, right? Mm-hmm, that’s how I had built, because that was the response I was getting.

[00:09:09] But then when we plateaued, it’s like, okay, like, what’s wrong? What, what is wrong? Because this was my number one, like money maker for the last year. Mm-hmm, like I was, I was making good money on it. We were doing like two downloads a week, easy, $500 weeks. Like, no, not even thinking about it. And so, um, I sat with a bunch of people that bought it, that bought Notion for Designers.

[00:09:31] I was like, what is wrong? Like, why is this not selling anymore? And I kind of was like begging a little bit cause I was like, I’ve never marketed this. Mm-hmm. Like I told 10 people about it and it took off like wildfire. I’ve never done an ad. I don’t, I think I’ve maybe done three social media posts about it in two years.

[00:09:49] Like I’ve never, never marketed it. And so I’m asking these people like, I don’t understand like, what is wrong. And every single person I sat with, eight people, every [00:10:00] single person said the complete opposite of what I had built for them, which was, we love this, but there’s X, Y, Z that we don’t need. Oh, and so we basically came up with what is now the first ever Notion template subscription, and it’s a plug and play.

[00:10:17] So it’s all of the templates you love and know that was in Notion for Designers, but you can decide at what point you’re ready. So if you just wanna start with client portals. Mm-hmm, you can start with them. If you’re ready to grow your business and you need operations in HR, you go grab those templates and you come in.

[00:10:34] Instead of consistently deep diving into what is the Notion template creator space, everybody builds differently. So now the Notion for Designers is streamlined into a content subscription is technically what it is. Um, it’s a, it’s an ARR product. So annual reoccurring revenue, people pay for a year,

[00:10:53] you have unlimited access. I add new templates every month, um, and you can request templates from me. And it’s the same price that Notion for Designers ended on. So you can buy it one time for $197 or just reoccur every year at $197. So we really learned that like the creator space is shifting.

[00:11:13] The freelance client-based businesses are shifting in the way that they handle communication, interaction. And so being kind of ahead of that has been really helpful to say like, Hey, what can I do better for you guys? You know? Mm-hmm. I have my methodologies, I’m the Notion expert. How can I make this as seamless as possible for you?

[00:11:31] So that’s what we’re doing. That’s where we’ve been and where we’re going.

[00:11:35] Rene: Yeah. I love a lot of those things there. I love that people were asking for something and you responded, you know, maybe, maybe hesitantly at first. Mm-hmm, but you responded with like, okay, like I can fulfill this need. If it was interesting to you.

[00:11:49] I love that sort of like, I’m not a huge fan of this say yes to everything, but like you said, like say yes to, if it feels good, like go towards the things that are interesting to you, like I’m, yeah, that’s, that’s [00:12:00] awesome.

[00:12:00] Sara: Um, well, and I think to that point, you know, for me, I should say like I have a history degree.

[00:12:05] My dream was to work at the Smithsonian, right? Mm-hmm. And so when I kind of landed in the creative space, I had no idea what was even out there, like I didn’t seek out building websites. I didn’t seek out even being an entrepreneur, that was never on my radar. And so for me, I say yes to things because I don’t know what my potential is.

[00:12:24] Mm-hmm, I don’t know, like, you know, for instance, I wouldn’t know if I liked email marketing. Maybe I love building email templates and I wouldn’t know until I picked up that project until and said yes to it. Mm-hmm. So that’s kind of what I meant from that, you know? Yeah. And I think too, like you don’t need to niche down.

[00:12:40] I think that’s like a huge, I guess like pain point in our industry. Mm-hmm is like, you either need to so niche down or you don’t. And that was a big thing of why Notion for Designers is now Systems OS and it’s a content subscription because you don’t have to be a designer to purchase it. Like you can benefit from my methodologies and my expertise if you’re a social media manager.

[00:13:02] So I only focus on client-based businesses. Mm-hmm as a broad term, because I know that my expertise can benefit more than one industry. And I think when you’re creating digital products, you know, we tend to kind of pigeonhole ourselves and not realize that we are. And so if you are considering creating a digital product, you know, list out your skills, list out what you’re making money on already, and then broaden it so you can niche out in order to niche down.

[00:13:30] Mm-hmm. And that’s just my. my two, my opinion, I guess my spicy take.

[00:13:35] Rene: Yeah, I like it. I like it. Yes. Yeah. I just love that there are so many different experiences, so many different paths. Mm-hmm like, you know, and really it’s, it’s finding the path that works for you, but trying, like you can’t find the path until you try the things.

[00:13:47] Exactly. Yeah. The same thing. Yeah. With email marketing, like, um, I love email marketing, but yeah, if I had never done it, how would I have known that I liked it. Yeah. And there could be other things that I like, but I don’t know because I like.

[00:13:58] Sara: And I think it goes the same way with [00:14:00] digital products, like, I just happened to luck out.

[00:14:02] Like I didn’t, I did not set a goal for this. Mm-hmm, I was like, this is gonna be my number one thing. I just tried it and I think, you know, since then I’ve had other things that have completely failed and so I think when, you know, you’re creating your first digital product or your second, like, just going in with the mindset that if you just impact one person, then you impact one person.

[00:14:25] Like not everything is gonna be what we’re seeing online with these creators who are making tens of thousands of dollars. Mm-hmm because they had a bunch of failed products before this one that you’re seeing the income on, you know? Right. So, but you have to be willing to, to mold from that if it doesn’t work, you know?

[00:14:40] Rene: Yes. Yeah. This sort of data. Iterative process and I like, you know, I’m not sure your experience, like how long it took to create things, but mm-hmm, um, this sort of like, I’m kind of like anti course, like this sort of like, I’m gonna carve out, like I’m gonna go into like a, a bunker for the next year mm-hmm and create this course that takes forever.

[00:14:57] Like, I just don’t think that’s a great way to go. Yeah. Um, so I love things that are, they’re smaller, they’re also easier for people to digest. Right. These like mm-hmm. So like a template is easy and I love this. That’s the other thing I, I wanted to say that, um, Because I’ve used some, you know, I haven’t used the systems you mentioned, but, um, other systems were like, I don’t need, you know, three quarters of these features.

[00:15:17] And wouldn’t it be great if I didn’t even have to see them? Right. Wouldn’t it be great if I didn’t even have to dig for the ones that I wanted? I could just, you know, take one, use it. Okay. I feel good. Maybe I’m ready for another. Yes. Yeah, I think that is,

[00:15:32] Sara: That’s where I totally agree with you. Oh my God. I think that is the downfall of most creators is they spend, they spend all this time thinking this is gonna be the greatest thing and I’ve gotta spend six months developing it, but haven’t told a single soul yes that they’re working on it.

[00:15:48] Rene: Exactly. Right.

[00:15:48] Sara: You have to pre-sell and that’s why like, like I said, you know, I created mine. I literally had this girl email me eight times. Mm-hmm eight times before I said yes. And I’m like, okay, well if she’s asking [00:16:00] this much for it, chances are other people need it. But my theory is if I come up with an idea like I am a, I don’t know what the term is, I’m constantly creating ideas like I’m a visionary.

[00:16:11] That’s my Meyers Briggs, you know? Mm-hmm. classification, I’m a serial brainstormer. And so my team and I, we kind of have this agreement that it’s like if it cannot be thought of, completely built out and marketed within a week, we don’t focus on it. Ooh. And in the sense of like, if I could put up a quick sales page, pre-sell it, call it a day, like that’s it.

[00:16:33] Um, and we have another lead magnet, which is my annual mapping workshop that we tested as a live stream on my YouTube channel over the summer and it went like wild. Um, and so we’re like, okay, cool, if we’re gonna do this, let’s put a price tag on it and see what it does. And again, you develop it one time, I already have the live stream.

[00:16:53] Mm-hmm, so I literally just downloaded it, edited it, and now I sell it and that’s it, and it’s done. And so that’s, I think the biggest downfall is like, don’t spend your entire life creating something. Mm-hmm. If people are asking for it, make it mm-hmm. If you post and say, Hey, I’m thinking about creating, I don’t know, like a guide or mm-hmm

[00:17:11] an ebook and no one responds, don’t waste your time on it. Right. Just right. Just don’t, you know.

[00:17:17] Rene: Yes. Right. That validation and it’s solving a specific problem too, or a problem that people care about. Mm-hmm, like, I think a lot of products solve problems, but they’re not problems that people like actually have.

[00:17:26] Right. Or people, the things that people just don’t care about. So yeah. What are those actual things that people care about and asking them? Mm-hmm, you know, or just letting them tell you and taking it in, I think is a great way to come up with these ideas that are actually going to work.

[00:17:39] Sara: Yeah, or focusing on problems that people are afraid to admit that they have.

[00:17:44] Rene: Oh, that’s good.

[00:17:45] Sara: I think, I think a lot of creators, you know, we can touch on a very specific problem. We know our audience has, you know, like I know for a fact that creatives work in chaos. Okay. It’s just mm-hmm, it is what it is. A [00:18:00] lot of creators are like, if you put me in a box, like I’m not gonna be as creative.

[00:18:03] But it’s like, no, like we can take the chaos out so you can be more creative. Mm-hmm. And that is a consistent problem that I think a lot of people don’t want to admit that they have. Mm-hmm. Um, and so they drag their feet. And so that’s a lot of the issues with lead magnets in lower ticket, um, products is like, you ha.

[00:18:21] Yes, you can tackle problem head on, but you also need to be kind of, kind about it and a little bit broad about it and get them into a larger funnel. And a larger offer like this should just be a little tiptoe and call it a day.

[00:18:34] Rene: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That makes us, that makes sense. I often think about creatives.

[00:18:37] It seems kind of like. I’ve noticed it with like numbers, like I like numbers, I like math, all this kind of stuff. But people who identify as more creative, they’re kind of like anti numbers and like anti math. Like, like you can only be one or the other. Mm-hmm, which doesn’t,

[00:18:51] Sara: I don’t know, make sense to, it doesn’t make any sense, but it’s like, how are you gonna, you wanna earn six figures?

[00:18:56] You gotta kind of be a little bit of a math person.

[00:18:59] Rene: Exactly right. Some math, right? Yes. Is important. Um, okay. So how did you build more audience. Like, so you launch the products, you know, you had some people around, you have asked for some things. Mm-hmm, you know, you shared some things and, and people are buying how, like what are you doing now to, to kind of keep it going?

[00:19:18] Are you getting people on an email list or, yeah. Um, you know, what are some other things, marketing activities I guess, that, that happen, if any?

[00:19:26] Sara: Great question because I don’t have a marketing strategy. No. Um, we, we really have kind of taken a backseat on cold marketing. Mm-hmm, that is not something I’m interested in.

[00:19:37] And so we’ve really been focusing the last, like, six months on building a newsletter because mm-hmm, you gotta think, you know, didn’t have a funnel set up. I didn’t have a follow up. You bought this product through Gumroad, which automatically I get your email. Mm-hmm and I never did anything with these people.

[00:19:52] Like I had a feedback survey kind of built in, but I didn’t force people to give me data. Mm-hmm, um, [00:20:00] and so I really, you know, with all the like, kind of uncertainty with Instagram and Facebook and Twitter Yes. And all these things, I, I really, you know, was like, what can we do differently to build this audience and really say like, Hey, we value your opinion, we value your feedback, but we also like wanna be more one-on-one with you.

[00:20:18] Um, and so I’ve been really diligent the last probably five, six months of building my newsletter. I send it every Thursday, um, like clockwork, and I talk about. I, I tell everybody, and it’s kind of a joke, uh, but not really, um, that at some point you are going to cry when you work with me. Um, I make every client cry at some point.

[00:20:39] Um, good tears, right? Because you’re realizing like, oh, I’m going through this evolution. I’m going through this change. Mm-hmm. And it’s the same with the products I have. Like, I’m not here to make you feel good. I’m not here to put you up on a pedestal. I am here for you to do the hard work. Mm-hmm and actually evolve because what’s the point of you paying me?

[00:20:57] Like if you’re not gonna change, right? Yes. Mm-hmm, and that’s like my biggest issue that I have with coaching is like, I don’t need to be told how good I am. I don’t need to be consistently reminded that like, I’m dope and I have a great brand. Like, great, cool, let’s move on. Right? Like, let’s do what else?

[00:21:10] Do harder things. Yeah. And I had a coach, just like I, I spent $17,000 on a coaching program last year that taught me nothing, right? Mm-hmm. and so, I’ve really, from that I learned, you know, I have to make my audience uncomfortable and really dive deep into those problems that they don’t want to admit themselves, right?

[00:21:30] Mm-hmm, so I get you in the door with some feel good stuff, like really surface level things. And then when you come in it’s like, I make you uncomfortable because it’s like, listen, like we’re gonna change, like you’re not here just to get a fun little newsletter.

[00:21:43] Um, and so like I have, I have kind of a, a fun running joke of like what my asshole policies are of, you know, if you don’t show up to a discovery call, I’m declining all future work. If you can’t communicate for a 30 minute call, it’s, I don’t want your money. Mm-hmm. And so it’s, we talk about things [00:22:00] like that, that I think keep my audience engaged, like on their toes.

[00:22:03] Like, oh my God, what is Sara gonna talk about next? Like, I can’t believe she’s saying these controversial things. Um, you know, so of course we saw in the newsletter, you know, Twitter’s been doing really well for me with threads. I’m kind of newer to the Twitter kind of space.

[00:22:18] Rene: Um, people love Notion on Twitter, people are talking Notion all day long on Twitter.

[00:22:22] Yeah. Everyone’s like, Notion, Notion, Notion, Notion.

[00:22:25] Sara: Yep. That’s, but it’s interesting because I don’t just talk about Notion, right? Mm-hmm. So I really, honestly, I’m, I’m very controversial when I say I don’t really give a shit what platform you use, right? Mm-hmm, because systems matter. It doesn’t matter where you execute those systems at, but if you need help with those systems, I have Notion stuff to kind of help you.

[00:22:44] Mm-hmm. So I make that really clear too, that like you can be a part of my audience whether you use Notion or not. Mm-hmm. But just know you’re gonna get notion stuff put at you to like make life a little easier. So. Mm-hmm.

[00:22:56] Rene: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And systems are so important, you know, like people, it’s, nobody is, you know, goes along and says, oh, I wish I had waited to create this system for my business.

[00:23:06] Right. The only thing people ever say is, I wish I would’ve started this sooner, you know, from the beginning. But any kind of system for anything, you know, just repeatable, like this mental load of I think being a service provider and being a creative and creating all the things and working with all the clients like mm-hmm.

[00:23:21] you know, to be able to offload some of that stuff, you know, with some systems I think is so valuable for people. Yeah. Put me in a box.

[00:23:30] Sara: And that’s why, you know my systems method, that’s kind of the bottom line for everything I do. You know, everything I teach includes this three step process. So it’s take the feedback, audit the feedback, implement your changes.

[00:23:42] And so every system I talk about, any topic I talk about literally follows that. And if you really think about it from bird’s eye view, it can be so simple to implement a system and to make it better if you just like minimize how much you go through and you simplify Yes. The way that you do it. Mm-hmm.[00:24:00]

[00:24:00] Rene: So, yeah, simplify. I think we make things so complicated too. Mm-hmm, we’re like, oh, let’s add all the, especially with digital products, you’re like, well, we wanna give so much more to people, you know, let’s add bells and whistles and nobody wants, no, you don’t have time for it. They don’t need it. Like just.

[00:24:14] Simplify. Simplify. Mm-hmm. I think it’s so important. Mm-hmm. . So, okay. So people, so you mentioned you had a design business. Do you still have that, like, so you, how is this kind of like you’re doing both of these things? You know, how is your business, if people, so people, you know, become a member? Like is there a way to work with you like maybe one-on-one more in depth?

[00:24:36] What else is there? I guess other than these products, you have the products. Yeah. Good. Yeah, totally. What’s the rest of the picture?

[00:24:43] Sara: Yeah, so it’s, it’s funny you say that, um, because after I became a Certified Notion consultant, I was also. During the first quarter of, of 2022, I was really going through it.

[00:24:54] I had a client sue me. Um, her daughter’s a celebrity. It was not fun. Um, I had a couple other instances that I just was like, design isn’t fun anymore. Mm-hmm. And so with Notion becoming a Certified Consultant, I kind of just fell in my lap and I had a, I had a conversation with my marketing director and I was like, look like.

[00:25:15] I can’t, I can’t do this anymore. Like I’m over the design stuff. Look it like Notion signing off on me. We’re getting, cuz we were getting Notion work before I became a certified consultant. Mm-hmm. So I had done several builds last year on top of, I did, oh my God, last year I did, I built 28 websites, 17 brand packages, nine Notion buildouts, like I worked an insane amount last year.

[00:25:38] And so that was also part of, it’s like how can we monetize while also taking a back seat. How can we raise our prices? And really, again, like mm-hmm, I listen to data. I’m a data person. Like I will pivot every month if I have to because the data’s telling me to, right? Like, I don’t, I don’t hang on to things I don’t need to hang on to.

[00:25:56] And so when I became a certified Notion consultant, we kind of sat [00:26:00] down and, and we were just like, you know what? Let’s just go all in, in Notion, in software and automation and tech. Because the other thing is a lot of our data, We were looking back at these branding projects and website projects, and more than half of our clients were asking us for business operation advice.

[00:26:17] Like, how do I, how do I price this? How do I mm-hmm, you know, manage this process? And that was the majority of the work I was doing. Mm-hmm. without really realizing it in the moment. Um, and so it was kind of a no-brainer. So in April we shut down the design business. And completely shifted to doing, um, deliverables, would be Notion, Zapier, automations, you know, things like that.

[00:26:42] Um, but we’ve aligned ourselves as a systems design agency. So, SYSTMS is the name of my business. Um, and we have, you know, all of these things that make up the systems within your brand. And I talk a lot about, you know, every, every business has its own ecosystem, right? You have all these spokes that have to work together.

[00:27:02] And so we try to have all of our products, our one-on-one services align with making your ecosystem a well-oiled machine. I kind of always vision like two gears, right? Yeah. That are spinning opposite, but they’re working together. Mm-hmm. Um, and so we still do one-on-one work.

[00:27:20] We call it a systems reset. So like if you have systems and you’re kind of like, something’s not working. Mm-hmm, we go in, we audit, we test, we do all of those things, we rebuild for you. Um, and then we have our, our super in-depth Notion builds, um, where. Basically act as like your, your Notion IT tech, um, in-house for you and train your team members and build your system out.

[00:27:41] And we do design sprints and it’s pretty, um, pretty crazy, but what we found through all of this is like our upped numbers, we were leaving out a lot of people mm-hmm, um, that just couldn’t simply, just couldn’t afford to work with me. And so that was, um, you know, a big reason why [00:28:00] I’ve launched a membership.

[00:28:01] We run it every quarter live for six weeks, and we focus on a specific area of your business. So it’s a way to still work with me in a group setting. But every quarter we focus on, so like Q1 is just client onboarding, Q2 is client management, Q3 is um, client retention retainer, and then Q4 is solely planning for the new year.

[00:28:22] Mm-hmm. So upping your prices, cleaning out your processes, and so it’s six weeks of live content bonus. Um, you also get an accountability buddy, which is something that I always lacked in programs I’ve taken in the past is like, I don’t wanna just talk with the coach, right? Mm-hmm, like, I wanna get to know the people in my, in my space.

[00:28:42] And so I am pairing everybody with a complimentary service. So if you do branding, you’ll get paired with a web designer or a web designer will get paired with a copywriter, social media, with branding, et cetera. So that way, like people kinda know what your processes are and can really give you feedback.

[00:28:59] Mm-hmm, so they’re all testing their processes together, going through, upping them, implementing them, and then shipping. Um, so we have that, that’s our club membership. Um, and then, you know, we have our Notion templates, which is a great product. And I’m just gonna touch on this too, if you do do service work, I hate, I kind of hate saying service-based businesses.

[00:29:18] It’s just so long.

[00:29:19] Rene: I know. It’s so clunky. Yes, I totally agree. What is a better name for this?

[00:29:23] Sara: Yeah, so I’ve really shifted to just saying client-based businesses. Mm-hmm. So if you are client focused, client facing, um, you know, everything I do is gonna be for you. Right. Um, but what we found in upping our prices is like, well, how can we, you know, still, still touch everybody based on what they need and how, so when we had Notion for Designers, I never used it for client work.

[00:29:46] Like I never was like, how can I kind of finagle this as a lower ticket offer? But now with our template subscription with SYSTMS OS, if you can’t afford to work with me one-on-one for a Notion build, I actually [00:30:00] have an automation set up when you apply to work with me and you don’t hit the budget range that I need you to hit.

[00:30:05] Mm-hmm. It will automatically send you an invitation to join our content subscription. Cool. Which is technically a digital product. And so then it’s like, cool, you can do it a little bit of a DIY, but you can actually upgrade. And get 30 days of one-on-one with me. Mm-hmm. So if you need like any kind of support.

[00:30:21] So that’s kind of our way of saying, okay, like we charge 20 grand now to work with me, but if you can’t afford that, here’s a quick little like $1,500 offer mm-hmm to get you in the door and kind of see where you’re going. So. So that’s what we do. And then, you know, I have my personal brand obviously, um, that I still take design projects every now and again, but I don’t market.

[00:30:41] Mm-hmm. It’s kind of like if you knew I did design in the past. Yes. Yeah. You referred like, here’s this like little backdoor thing mm-hmm, um, that I’m happy to work on. Um, but yeah, and I just. Create, create, create.

[00:30:55] Rene: Yeah. That’s awesome. Yeah, that’s, and it sounds like a lot of things, I’m like, how does she do all these things?

[00:30:59] Sara: It sounds like it.

[00:31:00] These things, the thing is, they’re all created, it’s just a matter of clicking Go live and updating the, the funnels.

[00:31:07] Rene: Yes, yes. Yeah. Oh, I love that too. Cuz. Um, I mean, I don’t know. The funnels are good. I feel like, you know, I, I don’t know that enough people are using them. Mm-hmm, I’m wondering about, you know, service businesses, like if they’re actually using them, you know, and if you, I, I just feel like, you know, email marketing is so important, you know, building that audience around you, you know, and the same thing, like you said, whoever knows what’s going on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram and all the, the Yeah. Things out there. So, yeah.

[00:31:29] Sara: Um, and that’s like the thing with the digital product, right? Is, it’s meant to be lower ticket. It’s meant mm-hmm to kind of be a little bit of a fix it and forget it in the sense that like, you should be auditing it every six months, once a year mm-hmm to make sure that like things are doing well.

[00:31:46] Mm-hmm, and that’s what people want, but like, you shouldn’t be touching it. Right? Mm-hmm, this should be literally making money in your sleep once you create it. Mm-hmm. And so like, even my entry point to work with me is all automated, so I kind of treat it as like a digital product [00:32:00] because it’s a holding pattern.

[00:32:02] When people apply to work with me, they get a Notion demo. They get a questionnaire that would’ve been in their onboarding. They get literally everything they could need. So that way I don’t even do discovery calls anymore. Like, Ooh, you get this entire thing, you read through it. If it all sounds good and you’re cool with the budget, cuz I don’t do value-based pricing either.

[00:32:20] Mm-hmm, I don’t believe in it. I think it’s bullshit. Um, we do flat rate. And so like, this is the number I’m gonna tell you on the call. Mm-hmm. So you better be ready for it. And so all of my discovery calls are now booking calls. Okay. So I don’t even, like, I don’t research clients beforehand. I don’t do any of that.

[00:32:36] Mm-hmm. So I get on a call and it’s like, okay, cool, you’re ready to go. What day do you wanna start? Mm-hmm, here’s your contract. I make them pay a booking fee on that call to lock them in and that’s it. So, you know, it’s really, I’ve created this funnel kind of as a digital product. It’s fix it, forget it.

[00:32:51] Mm-hmm, I only touch it when the links break, or mm-hmm, you know, I get feedback to change something and that’s when you start to automate the systems within your one-on-one, you start to free up so much time. Mm-hmm. That you can look at stuff and say, oh, I should template this out. I should template that out.

[00:33:09] You know, I get so many people who are like, how did you do website in a week last year? I had built 27 websites last year. I had a new client every single 10 days. You know how I did it? Yeah. I created digital products for myself, which were Squarespace templates. Mm-hmm. So I picked one internally, plugged in the data and went on my way.

[00:33:26] Mm-hmm. So there’s so many things you could do and I could totally sell those, right? Like mm-hmm, you could sell those if you wanted to. You could sell copywriting templates. If whatever you’re doing one-on-one with clients as a process, chances are you can turn it into a product. Mm-hmm, whether it’s free,

[00:33:40] low ticket or I, I personally don’t believe in digital products that are over a hundred dollars, unless it has a little bit of a one-on-one value.

[00:33:49] Rene: Like time with you. Yeah. Yeah. And some people do it that way, where they have it. Yeah. You know, it’s 50 bucks or 70 bucks or whatever, but then it’s, you know, 300 bucks because they get, you know, half hour of your time or, you [00:34:00] know, a week of email support or things like that.

[00:34:01] I do like that as an option, option for people. Um, I just feel like it’s, I like the, the ladder of options because maybe. You know, you’re just warming people up and as their budget increases maybe, or as they like you more and they find more money in their budget, they can continue to work with you. If you only have one thing.

[00:34:18] Exactly. And then the, the, the next rung on the ladder is so far up. Mm-hmm. like they might not, you might lose them in between, so.

[00:34:25] Sara: Yep. Yeah, it’s gotta kind of be like a no-brainer, right? Mm-hmm, like if you’re thinking about buying an iPhone and it’s like you see one price for a 16 or like a 90 gig iPhone, and then you see the price for a 400 gig iPhone, it should be a no-brainer to just upgrade.

[00:34:40] You know, it’s about, so that’s, you know what, it took me a while to understand about digital products is talking about the value, not the outcome in terms of like the deliverables that you get, right? Yes. Like what is the value of this? Yes. And so like our, our lead magnet, our annual mapping workshop, you can buy the recording for $57 literally right now.

[00:35:02] But if you want a one-on-one call with me, for me to actually plan with you, it’s 497. Mm-hmm. And so it’s like, okay, the value is either you get Sara or you just do it by yourself. Mm-hmm, and hopefully you don’t have questions.

[00:35:14] Rene: Right. You know. Right. But we’re all terrible at the value thing. We’re like feature, feature, feature.

[00:35:20] Mm-hmm and not like value, value, value. I’m, I’m working with a coach now too, and, uh, you know, pretty much every, every week we’re talking about the, so that, right? Mm-hmm. So I do this so that, you know, and that’s where the value comes in, I think. Yeah. Um, but yes, we’re, we’re not good at that. Um, you know, we’re good at doing the thing that we do.

[00:35:39] Mm-hmm. , but, you know, these are new skills and I, I just think that that’s so interesting. Like that’s the interesting part of business. We’re not just working at, you know, some, you know, Joe Schmo office just doing the thing that they’re telling you to do. Like you get to create this life, you get to create these processes.

[00:35:56] Like that’s exciting that you get to do that. [00:36:00] Like, I don’t know. Yeah, that’s my, yeah.

[00:36:01] Sara: No, it really is. Box. Yeah. And I think that’s, that’s where a lot of people can, you know, do really well with having a digital product is like, look at what you’re already doing. Mm-hmm. Look at what you were missing. Look at what you and your friends in the industry are talking about.

[00:36:16] Mm-hmm, you know, is it constantly a headache on. You know, getting copy from your clients. Yes. Okay. Then write a copywriting template. Yes. And give it to people. Mm-hmm, you know, and I think that’s the thing is like digital products don’t have to be public facing. You can create digital products internally.

[00:36:33] Mm-hmm that add value to your one-on-one offers. And I don’t think a lot of people realize that the assets you provide internally for your clients are just as valuable as external facing products. Mm-hmm. that are sold on Gumroad or Etsy, whatever other platform there is anywhere, you know?

[00:36:50] Rene: Yes. Yeah, definitely.

[00:36:51] Mm-hmm. Yes. And creating those, it, it just makes it easier for everyone. And even if they’re upsells even too, like, that’s even better. Yeah. But it’s making your life easier, you know, while adding that extra for the client. I, I don’t know. I think they’re way win. Exactly. That’s why I’m creating this podcast.

[00:37:07] Sara: I love that all about, I love talking about this stuff. I’m like, let’s talk, like I’ve thought about, oh my gosh, I just, like, I could talk about automations and systems all day long. Yes, yes. You know, and all of, all of this goes into it, you know? Mm-hmm, as long as you have like a base thing for your, your digital product, like it doesn’t have to be this crazy extensive mm-hmm.

[00:37:26] funnel or this and that, like just capture their emails. Mm-hmm. And so when you’re ready to do something, you have the contacts there. Mm-hmm. You know, so.

[00:37:36] Rene: And don’t be afraid to email them. I think a lot of people, yeah, sometimes will collect the email and then they never email them. Like, what are you waiting for?

[00:37:41] Sara: Yes.

[00:37:42] Rene: I feel like it’s so much easier to email a list with 10 people on it. Mm-hmm. than it is to email a list with a thousand people. Mm-hmm. Especially if you haven’t done it before. So like, yes. You know, when it’s just like, Your friends on the list, like it’s easy, you know, like you’re not going to be good at it yet, so Right.

[00:37:57] Dip your toe in, you know, build [00:38:00] that, that, you know, consistency and that process. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. your voice. Find your voice, all that stuff. That way when you have a thousand people on the list mm-hmm, those emails actually sound good.

[00:38:08] Sara: Yes. Yeah, that’s great. And also like treat your audience like you actually give a fuck about them.

[00:38:13] Yeah. Like so many people are so afraid to like ask for feedback or ask for opinions. Mm-hmm, I have a very specific group of about 22 people that anytime I’m thinking about a new product or I’m thinking about changing a process, I literally emailed those 25 people and I’m like, Hey, what do you think about this?

[00:38:32] Mm-hmm, what is your opinion on this? And that will help shift like, okay, is this worth even pursuing? Is it something that people want? And I think as freelancers especially, because I mean, at least this was a struggle that I had, but I went cold turkey. Like I went from working at this nonprofit since I was 18.

[00:38:50] I quit when I was 26. Like I had no other professional development, nothing. Mm-hmm, right? And all of a sudden now I’m on my own boss, like, don’t give me feedback. Like, don’t I know everything, right? Like that was my mindset when I was first doing this. And so I was so afraid of constructive criticism for a very, very long time.

[00:39:09] And so, you know, if you can build a tight little group that you’re not afraid if they tell you that it’s a bad idea or hey, like, what about this? Right? Like, what if you added this or tweaked this mm-hmm or changed that, that is going to change the trajectory of your products a hundred percent. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:29] You have to have a close, tight-knit and ask for their feedback. Don’t go posting in a Facebook group being like, oh my God, thinking about this. Like, do not do that. Find people that have bought something from you or even a free thing and keep that community close. Mm-hmm, that’s all I can, that’s the best advice I could give anybody trying to start is like, if you gave something for free and now you wanna monetize it, ask them, how much would you pay for this now that you’ve had it mm-hmm.

[00:39:55] What would make you pay it? What, what, mm-hmm does it not have now that wouldn’t make [00:40:00] you pay for it.

[00:40:00] Right. Three questions.

[00:40:02] Rene: They have the answers. Yeah. Because the things that sometimes we think, you know, are just, it’s just not the way it goes. Mm-hmm like even, you know, sending an email to clients, you think they’re going to respond a certain way?

[00:40:11] Don’t assume. Never Don’t assume. Never assume. Because people will surprise you. Yep. I’m constantly surprised. So yes. Asking people whose opinion you value, right? Yeah. Like you said, don’t just ask the masses cuz there’s.

[00:40:23] Sara: And don’t ask your mother, cuz she’s gonna be like, honey, it’s great. I love you so much.

[00:40:27] You know what I mean? Like actually ask people and two, like ask people that are in complimentary spaces. Mm-hmm, I think there’s such this like, oh my God, there’s competition everywhere. Like there’s not, you know? Yeah. There’s not. If you, if you’re a web designer creating a, a product that would benefit somebody who’s doing branding, but their client doesn’t have money for a website and you’re selling templates, partner with those people.

[00:40:50] Mm-hmm. , like allow them to become affiliates too, because, there is no stitch thing as competition. Like there’s just, there’s so many, like, you need to make friends.

[00:40:58] Rene: Yes. Billions of websites out there. There’s so much work to be done. Yes, I totally agree. I don’t think

[00:41:04] Sara: I’ll die on this hill. Listen.

[00:41:05] Rene: Yes, I, yes, I totally agree with you.

[00:41:07] Yes. There is no, there’s two, and I don’t wanna do all, you know, 8 billion websites or however many websites there are. Like, I just wanna do the ones that I wanna do, and then, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of work to be done, so, yeah. I, I agree.

[00:41:19] Yeah. No, no, competion. So those just,

[00:41:22] Sara: You have to break that mindset, you know?

[00:41:24] Yes. So mm-hmm this competition, take it and do it better.

[00:41:28] Rene: Yes. Well that too.

[00:41:29] Yes. I just feel like as a freelancer, you, you have to really step into, um, an abundance mindset. Yes. Because I think if you, if you try to live in this scarcity mindset mm-hmm, like it is just not going to go well for you. Like Yeah.

[00:41:42] You have to believe that if you do good work and you show up every day. I we’re, I feel like I’m getting sidetracked, but if you

[00:41:49] Sara: No, it’s okay.

[00:41:50] Rene: And you show up every day. Yeah. And your intentions are good, that you want to provide value to people. Mm-hmm, um, and, you know, just do good things in the world that things will come, like [00:42:00] things will come to you.

[00:42:01] You’ll, you’ll be able to do those things. But if you’re afraid and you’re like, I don’t know mm-hmm, and you do your hesitant, I think that, you know, they’re, the bad clients may come and it’s just not. You have to have,

[00:42:11] Sara: Well, that goes into the pricing too, right? Like you have to have the mindset that your, like who your audience is.

[00:42:18] Mm-hmm. So for me, you know, I was in, I, I grew up in not a financially like, stable environment at all. And um, you know, I’m constantly having to check myself going, well, I wouldn’t pay this much for this, like, I can’t afford to buy an $1,800 membership, right? Mm-hmm, which is total bullshit, but like, I think that’s what a lot of people stop short on of actually making money on digital products is going, people don’t have, my audiences have money to pay for this.

[00:42:43] Mm-hmm, or you know, they’re just starting in their freelance career. They’re not gonna wanna invest in this. Well, that’s what’s gonna hold you back. Yes. You know, like, start small. Sure. Increase the price over time. Right. But that’s part of that mindset that people have to shift mm-hmm in order to make things work or you know, you’re gonna fall.

[00:43:00] I fell into the cycle for a long time that I could not sell something over $97 like I could. I just couldn’t, I couldn’t make the sales. And so I fell into this habit of like only doing a $27 product or a $57 product, or a $67 with a coupon, you know? And so you really have to really think about what is the value, what are you providing, and the people that don’t want to invest in it or literally can’t, they’re not part of your audience, and that’s okay.

[00:43:28] But we also need to remember that they’re going to stay invisible clients and they’re going to continue watching you. Mm-hmm until they can afford to buy it. And so, right. Making space for everybody in your mindset and also in your marketing is incredibly important.

[00:43:43] Rene: Yeah, I agree. I agree with all of that for sure.

[00:43:45] So it’s kind of sounds like you gave us some advice, but that’s kind of my. My closing ish question is the Sure. The two to three. Two to three things that you recommend for somebody. Mm-hmm. So there’s people out there who have not created anything. They want to, they want to create a digital product.

[00:43:59] Mm-hmm, what [00:44:00] is your advice for them to either do or not do?

[00:44:03] Sara: Yeah. First audit review, everything you do. Mm-hmm, like there are things that are staring you straight in the face that you could create as a product, but you’re not seeing it on the market, or you are, and you think that it, well, somebody already did it.

[00:44:16] Like, I can’t do this. Like, think about what are you consistently offering as value, whether, again, that’s copywriting, you know, like for me, I have like Notion templates for copywriting that was literally a wire frame for a homepage. It’s like, fill in what you want here, fill in what you want there, fill in your services.

[00:44:32] You could turn that into a digital product. So, you know, take the time. No tech, I call it closing the screens. Mm-hmm, um, where you are just. wholeheartedly diving into what you’re doing and really think about what is working well, what is not working well, what am I having issues with that I’m sure other people are having issues with?

[00:44:52] And then start to think about, okay, like what is my commitment to this? Is it just like a PDF? Is it a video? What is the potential I see? Then go to your audience, your quick little five person go to, even if it’s just one person, go to them and say, Hey. Mm-hmm, what do you think about this? Get their feedback, get their opinion.

[00:45:13] Do not take it biasly. That is the number one. Like that’s where most people end because they take shit personally. Don’t take it personally, edit, audit, and ship it and just see how the world reacts to it. That’s literally all you can do. Um, and so I think the other thing is like. Again, we go back to mindset, right?

[00:45:33] Don’t be afraid if it doesn’t sell. Mm-hmm, who the fuck cares? You created a product and you can edit it, reship it, right? Mm-hmm. like I launched, um, I did a launch on Product Hunt. That, in my opinion, totally tanked. It did not do well. Um, and so it’s like, okay, like I can relaunch on Product Hunt whenever I want.

[00:45:51] Like noth, that’s the greatest part about being a creator on the internet. Nothing is permanent. You can redo things, you can change [00:46:00] prices, you can change descriptions. Nothing is permanent. And so keeping that mindset, anything you create will be successful, you know? Mm-hmm. So, and don’t like, be like, yeah, I’m gonna make a hundred grand from this digital product.

[00:46:12] Well, yes, make a thousand dollars. Yes. Pay your car payment with it. Like what? That’s, that’s always my goal is with something I create what bill? What bill can I make enough money to pay that bill on? You know? So if it’s a $50 product and you have a $200 car payment mm-hmm, all you need is four sales. Mm-hmm.

[00:46:29] Call a day, you know? So yeah, that was a lot of advice. I’m sorry.

[00:46:33] Rene: No, it’s good.

[00:46:34] Sara: Listen, I can talk about this all day.

[00:46:36] Rene: I like it. That’s good. Yeah. Well, is there anything else that we didn’t touch on that, that you wanted to mention? I mean, you did mention some failed products. Like any lessons, you don’t have to tell us like the specific details, any lessons from like the things it failed other than just like, yeah, pick back up and keep going. Yeah. Try it again. Try something else.

[00:46:52] Sara: The ones that failed were the ones I didn’t ask people’s opinions on and I shipped. Okay. And I was like, I’m gonna build this sales page and this is gonna be the greatest thing ever. Didn’t mention it once.

[00:47:01] Mm-hmm. Never sold. Mm. Okay. That’s good. So I’m telling y’all like feedback, feedback, feedback. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think too, the other things that failed. I had created at one point a client communication toolbox, cuz I was like, freelancers suck at communicating with clients. And I think I had like four buys on it and it went great, but I was like, I can do this better.

[00:47:19] Mm-hmm. And so it turned into a different product. Right? So it like failed kind of, but then we shipped it in a different way and things went better. And that’s also the same thing too, is like, if it failed, it could literally as simply be the medium you’re releasing it on. Mm-hmm. PDFs don’t do well anymore.

[00:47:38] Right. Put it as a Notion page. Mm-hmm. E-books don’t sell as much. Record it, put it on video. You don’t even need, need to show your face anymore. There’s so many AI tools, just record it, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, and so thinking about your medium, if something fails, change the medium. If it fails again, change the product.

[00:47:56] Mm-hmm. But other than that, I mean, I just, I hang [00:48:00] out a lot on Twitter. I’ve got my newsletter, um, y’all can find me at thesaraloretta literally everywhere. I have the same handle on everything. Um, I make it easy. I am the only Sara Loretta out there. Well, I’m not, but I mentally, I am. Um, yeah, and I, you know, I tell everybody every podcast I’m on, if you’ve heard me on other shows, I mean this, when I say it, my DMs are always open. It might take me a minute to respond, but I don’t hold back. I don’t believe really in paywalls. Mm-hmm. So if you have questions, if you need support, shoot me a DM on any of those platforms that I’m happy to connect with you, so.

[00:48:35] Rene: Awesome. Great. Well, thank you.

[00:48:36] Sara: I like, so would preach that I’m like begging. I’m like, please DM me. Like I’m happy to help you.

[00:48:41] Rene: It’s good. Yeah. Because I think, you know, like you said, even if just like one listener, one person is like really. Oh, I need that. I have a question. Like just being able to, to kind of get to someone directly. I kind of like that about social media that you can actually get to people.

[00:48:54] Yeah. Um, you know, and you know, with a promise you’ll respond. I think that’s great. Like,

[00:48:58] that’s amazing. Yeah.

[00:48:59] Sara: Yeah, I don’t, well, I don’t give a shit what your follower count is. I don’t care what you’re doing. Like I, I just like, I love people. I, I, you know, I just, I love people with good intentions and I grew up an only child, so I will talk to you until I am blue in the face.

[00:49:14] I don’t care who you are. So, you know, I, I really, I really mean that y’all, when I say it, like if you need help creating a product or anything, like I’m happy to help at any time.

[00:49:23] Rene: That’s awesome. Great. Thank you. Well, thank you so much for being on the show today and um, all the links. Yeah, will be in the show notes and we’ll, we’ll put all that together and thank you again.

[00:49:34] Sara: Thanks. Thanks guys.

[00:49:36] Rene: Hey, thanks for listening. I’d love to continue the conversation in your inbox. Email SUBSCRIBE to hey at yfdp.show or sign up in the show notes to get bimonthly emails about how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. Can’t wait to see you there.